George Floyd/Black Lives Matter Protests

[Savage Henry]

5 hours ago, ThatBoyRonaldo said:

Something that slightly grates with me is people moaning about 'they should teach kids about this in schools' and its close cousin 'they don't teach any Scottish history in schools, it's 1066 then straight to the war'. I left school over a decade ago and pretty sure this was covered, along with loads of other Scottish, UK and world history. For a subject that is only compulsory for 2 years they do alright. You can cover racism in other areas as well - reading Othello in English was a formative experience for me for example. 

Schools/putting something in the curriculum are a small part of the issue imo - the main problem is that Britain at large hasn't really ever accepted that the empire was a bad thing. It doesn't really matter that much what you study in your hour of history a week between 13 and 15 if that doesn't change imo. 

I half agree with this.  Racial issues aren’t necessarily purely historical.  It’s very much - or at least was - part of Modern Studies, too.  

I would disagree that there isn’t an acceptance of the flaws of the empire.  Even Michael Portillo on his train show goes around letting locals talk about the injustices (and, for want of a better word, legacy) of the empire.  I really think it’s only the UKIP/Britain First/far right of the Tories who refuse to accept it.

[NotThePars]

11 minutes ago, Savage Henry said:

I half agree with this.  Racial issues aren’t necessarily purely historical.  It’s very much - or at least was - part of Modern Studies, too.  

I would disagree that there isn’t an acceptance of the flaws of the empire.  Even Michael Portillo on his train show goes around letting locals talk about the injustices (and, for want of a better word, legacy) of the empire.  I really think it’s only the UKIP/Britain First/far right of the Tories who refuse to accept it.

The bigger problem is that the majority of the public appear to view it as broadly a force for good in history. That's a clear failure of education. In fairness, it would've been even worse if Gove had got his way.

[Bohemian]

Did anyone catch that racist attack in Co.Cork Ireland the weekend? One of the most horrific things I've ever seen, had to turn off after a few seconds... 

The difference here was it was a gang of black lads slicing up a white kid and stabbing him multiple times while his girlfriend tried to hold them off.. lad recording it laughing and egging him on...  honestly one of the most horrific things I've seen..

Edited June 8, 2020 by Bohemian

[The_Kincardine]

9 minutes ago, Savage Henry said:

I half agree with this.  Racial issues aren’t necessarily purely historical.  It’s very much - or at least was - part of Modern Studies, too.  

I would disagree that there isn’t an acceptance of the flaws of the empire.  Even Michael Portillo on his train show goes around letting locals talk about the injustices (and, for want of a better word, legacy) of the empire.  I really think it’s only the UKIP/Britain First/far right of the Tories who refuse to accept it.

I've no real experience of the UKIP/British First brigade but am firmly the middle-England Tory camp and don't know anyone who regards Empire as anything more than a very mixed bag.  I'd go further and say that the scion of middle England Tories like me are in the van of trying to right historic wrongs and certainly my three would be of the iconoclastic 'pull down the statues' mindset.

More worrying are the Scots who have never come to terms with their colonial past. While England paddled up to its ankles in Empire we Scots were up to our knees in conquest and slavery and, since 1707, built our country around it.  The blood on the butchers' apron was, pound for pound, more likely to be let by Scots.

[Cheese]

Part 1 done. Now you just have to disingenuously link it to the Yes movement.

[Mr Waldo]

7 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

The bigger problem is that the majority of the public appear to view it as broadly a force for good in history. That's a clear failure of education. In fairness, it would've been even worse if Gove had got his way.

Without going into the rights and wrongs, simply because it did some right and it did some wrong, but ask the people of Hong Kong, or Singapore, or a few other places with shee-ite neighbours if the Empire was evil.

Democracy, a bad thing?

And yes, I am aware of the bad things the British Empire did but I think it is more complex than evil...or good.

Personally, in the life of this planet, I believe the British Empire was a force for good....if you compare to what if it never existed.  

[NotThePars]

3 minutes ago, Mr Waldo said:

Without going into the rights and wrongs, simply because it did some right and it did some wrong, but ask the people of Hong Kong, or Singapore, or a few other places with shee-ite neighbours if the Empire was evil.

Democracy, a bad thing?

And yes, I am aware of the bad things the British Empire did but I think it is more complex than evil...or good.

Personally, in the life of this planet, I believe the British Empire was a force for good....if you compare to what if it never existed.  

 

32 minutes ago, Savage Henry said:

I half agree with this.  Racial issues aren’t necessarily purely historical.  It’s very much - or at least was - part of Modern Studies, too.  

I would disagree that there isn’t an acceptance of the flaws of the empire.  Even Michael Portillo on his train show goes around letting locals talk about the injustices (and, for want of a better word, legacy) of the empire.  I really think it’s only the UKIP/Britain First/far right of the Tories who refuse to accept it.

See what I mean

[Mr Waldo]

Just now, NotThePars said:

 

See what I mean

No. 

[101]

I have seen quite a few posts about Slavery being taught in schools. It is in Scotland. Maybe not as well as I can be but it is being taught.

[Cheese]

12 minutes ago, Mr Waldo said:

Without going into the rights and wrongs, simply because it did some right and it did some wrong, but ask the people of Hong Kong, or Singapore, or a few other places with shee-ite neighbours if the Empire was evil.

Democracy, a bad thing?

And yes, I am aware of the bad things the British Empire did but I think it is more complex than evil...or good.

Personally, in the life of this planet, I believe the British Empire was a force for good....if you compare to what if it never existed.  

[Mr Waldo]

2 minutes ago, 101 said:

I have seen quite a few posts about Slavery being taught in schools. It is in Scotland. Maybe not as well as I can be but it is being taught.

Children I know are taught about the slave trade but they are not really taught about  the Arab slave trade, or the African slave trade, or the South American slave trade.   Or the fact that,according to some reliable sources, their are more slaves today than in the 19th centuary?

[Mr Waldo]

3 minutes ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said:

As usual, selective quotes - was a force for good ..compared to what would have happened if it never existed is what I said.

[Cheese]

1 minute ago, Mr Waldo said:

As usual, selective quotes - was a force for good ..compared to what would have happened if it never existed is what I said.

It was an unfortunate choice of phrase.

Anyway, tell us what would have happened if it had never existed.

[101]

4 minutes ago, Mr Waldo said:

Children I know are taught about the slave trade but they are not really taught about  the Arab slave trade, or the African slave trade, or the South American slave trade.   Or the fact that,according to some reliable sources, their are more slaves today than in the 19th centuary?

Forgive my ignorance but I guess the reason we are taught about the Atlantic Slave Trade is because that's what we (the Scots/ Brits) were closest aligned to and made a hell of a lot of cash from.

The other slave trades to mention as far as I know didn't have the same level of UK interference. There is a lot of evil shit in the world but I don't thin it's realistic to teach everyone everything at school, for example the street names in Glasgow in particular if you didn't know that why not? Take some interest in where you live and the people that lived there only by doing that will we avoid the atrocities the generations made before.

As for modern slavery I did learn about that at school but not in any great detail however I doubt folk care now if they can't see people in chains they will brush it off. A number of companies that trade in the UK use prison labour in the US which is basically slavery. I don't think people will stop using Asda or McDonald's - price is the big driver in the UK and US not ethics

[craigkillie]

6 hours ago, ThatBoyRonaldo said:

Something that slightly grates with me is people moaning about 'they should teach kids about this in schools' and its close cousin 'they don't teach any Scottish history in schools, it's 1066 then straight to the war'. I left school over a decade ago and pretty sure this was covered, along with loads of other Scottish, UK and world history. For a subject that is only compulsory for 2 years they do alright. You can cover racism in other areas as well - reading Othello in English was a formative experience for me for example. 

Schools/putting something in the curriculum are a small part of the issue imo - the main problem is that Britain at large hasn't really ever accepted that the empire was a bad thing. It doesn't really matter that much what you study in your hour of history a week between 13 and 15 if that doesn't change imo. 

They perhaps teach it in some schools, but it's certainly not everywhere. I finished school in 2007 and have no recollection of ever learning about the slave trade or any other aspect of British colonialism at any point. We studied US civil rights in modern studies, but it was very much from a modern perspective and didn't really go into a great deal of depth about the historical reasons why these racial differences were entrenched.

I feel as though it should be central to the curriculum, not some optional topic which schools can choose to cover. If the Scottish government can (quite rightly) embed LGBTI issues into the curriculum then I think it is reasonable to ask them to do the same for topics surrounding racism.

My hypothesis here is that people who grew up in more working class and/or less ethnically diverse areas are much less likely to have this as part of their education. I haven't necessarily got any evidence for this, but I think it stands to reason.

[Mr Waldo]

2 minutes ago, 101 said:

Forgive my ignorance but I guess the reason we are taught about the Atlantic Slave Trade is because that's what we (the Scots/ Brits) were closest aligned to and made a hell of a lot of cash from.

The other slave trades to mention as far as I know didn't have the same level of UK interference. There is a lot of evil shit in the world but I don't thin it's realistic to teach everyone everything at school, for example the street names in Glasgow in particular if you didn't know that why not? Take some interest in where you live and the people that lived there only by doing that will we avoid the atrocities the generations made before.

As for modern slavery I did learn about that at school but not in any great detail however I doubt folk care now if they can't see people in chains they will brush it off. A number of companies that trade in the UK use prison labour in the US which is basically slavery. I don't think people will stop using Asda or McDonald's - price is the big driver in the UK and US not ethics

I agree with you 100%  But I get annoyed that it sounds like certain people invented slavery. (I am trying to be polite).  We must teach people about our history. Should we rename Buchanan Street in Glasgow?

I think a biger issue is, will people stop using the likes of iPhones because some of their components are made by current day slaves. 

 

[ICTChris]

We studied slavery in Standard grade history. We had a mock debate about the abolition of slavery and I was chosen to speak for the pro slavery side. I can’t recall exactly what arguments I used, I think most of the arguments we covered were religious in nature.

I had forgotten about that until right now, what a really odd situation to put children in. I was about 13 or 14 at the time and was asked to argue for slavery in front of the class. How strange.

[101]

7 minutes ago, Mr Waldo said:

I agree with you 100%  But I get annoyed that it sounds like certain people invented slavery. (I am trying to be polite).  We must teach people about our history. Should we rename Buchanan Street in Glasgow?

I think a biger issue is, will people stop using the likes of iPhones because some of their components are made by current day slaves. 

 

I personally don't think we should rename anything that has a troubled past, if people don't educate themselves then I don't know what we can do. The caveat I would add is that I'm a white guy the street is named after a nasty white guy but if it made people of other ethnicities uncomfortable then I would say take it down but it should absolutely make white Scots feel uncomfortable that our countrymen profited from the sale of humans.

There is a reason the fairfone isn't a market leader...

In Britian I worry that this is just one big social media stunt I hope things change but I very much doubt it. If the amount of people I saw do blackout Tuesday actually made one change in their lives the world would be a better place already.

[Theroadlesstravelled]

26 minutes ago, 101 said:

I personally don't think we should rename anything that has a troubled past, if people don't educate themselves then I don't know what we can do. The caveat I would add is that I'm a white guy the street is named after a nasty white guy but if it made people of other ethnicities uncomfortable then I would say take it down but it should absolutely make white Scots feel uncomfortable that our countrymen profited from the sale of humans.

There is a reason the fairfone isn't a market leader...

In Britian I worry that this is just one big social media stunt I hope things change but I very much doubt it. If the amount of people I saw do blackout Tuesday actually made one change in their lives the world would be a better place already.

I agree. No way should Rangers International have been allowed back into the league.

[D.A.F.C]

Just now, Theroadlesstravelled said:

I agree. No way should Rangers International have been allowed back into the league.

It’s ok rangers were abolished years ago.