Detournement Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 Looooollllllllllza 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falcor Roar Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 (edited) 14 minutes ago, NotThePars said: This is the part that gets me personally. History is being rewritten and challenged every single day, it's pretty much the point of History as a discipline. This idea that the uncritical ossification of history is desirable is a bit daft which is exactly what the demand to leave these statues up is trying to do. This is the thing, some people genuinely consider that the way the British Empire has been communicated over the last 100 years is even handed. Statues of slave masters in every major city and town in the country. How much public space is dedicated to the other side of the story, the suffering Britain caused? It's perfectly acceptable to revisit how history is communicated in society. Putting the damaged and spray painted Colston statue in a museum as it is and replacing it with an important figure in Black British history is an appropriate thing to do. Its forcible removal and dumping in the harbour is an historic act itself. Edited June 9, 2020 by Falcor Roar 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genuine Hibs Fan Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 (edited) 13 minutes ago, NotThePars said: This is the part that gets me personally. History is being rewritten and challenged every single day, it's pretty much the point of History as a discipline. This idea that the uncritical ossification of history is desirable is a bit daft which is exactly what the demand to leave these statues up is trying to do. The whole point, always, with these people, is that they don't want to have to think about things. "I would like my history as Ancient Egyptians - Weird mummy shit Rome - Julius Caesar and orgies Normans and Medieval - knights, castles Henry VIII - had 6 wives WWI - Lots of mud WWII - We beat the baddies and everything we did in the meantime was absolutely fine and making me think outside this is rewriting history! And that is bad because history is only a list of objective facts." Edited June 9, 2020 by Genuine Hibs Fan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 18 minutes ago, craigkillie said: Well they're not "history deniers" for one thing, are they? The literal reason they've taken that statue for a nice cold bath is because they accept and understand the history. So if we don't agree with something or it annoys us we should destroy it ? Mob rule and anarchy, is that what you would advocate ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, Falcor Roar said: Putting the damaged and spray painted Colston statue in a museum as it is and replacing it with an important figure in Black British history is an appropriate thing to do. The only appropriate statue for Bristol is Massive Attack. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 3 minutes ago, WATTOO said: So if we don't agree with something or it annoys us we should destroy it ? Mob rule and anarchy, is that what you would advocate ? It's an inanimate statue M8 stop having a fucking coronary. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dons_1988 Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 (edited) The problem with mob rule is it tends to be an 'act now, decide if it was right after' scenario. I'm not sure there's much argument that the right thing happened here ultimately but these things set a precedent and it won't be long before another mob tears down something a lot more treasured, for a far less worthy cause. Edited June 9, 2020 by Dons_1988 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Steele Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 2 hours ago, WATTOO said: The point most seem to be missing about the bloke in Bristol is that he didn't have a statue erected for being a slaver, he had it erected as he built hospitals and schools for the ordinary working class people of the city, so for all his deemed faults he did much good and as such should be celebrated. His school was only for children of Anglican parents, those in his Almshouse were expected to attend chapel twice a day, and the family motto is "Go and do though likewise". I take it the money gained from human trafficking (although it's arguable if these people gave slaves the dignity of being called human. Read Beloved by Toni Morrison.) only benefitted him, his family and a thin strata of Bristol society? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falcor Roar Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 Has anyone else on P&B found themselves vigorously defending a racist statue on a Tuesday afternoon? 15 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 9 minutes ago, Genuine Hibs Fan said: My own views are that whether you want to or not you cannot change history and attempting to do so is very dangerous, as it erases the very mistakes and reasons behind those mistakes that you should wish to avoid making in the future. - Who is trying to change history? The only way to do that is through time travel. This is yet to be invented. Are any of the rich and powerful philanthropists from our history lily white (pardon the pun) ?? - Likely not, but there is a scale upon which we judge those from the past. Their actions should be considered in context, but there are those whose actions are egregious despite this. Slavers are probably (certainly) in this group, given that abolition was not some fringe idea from about 1600 onwards. What about our more recent leaders ? Churchill sanctioned the destruction and murder of tens of thousands of innocents in the likes of Dresden as a revenge for Coventry and what about all the innocents who were killed by the British and American bombs in Iraq and Afghanistan ? = Yes, we should think very carefully before lionising any, especially recent, leaders. Churchill is more complex than most due to his role in defeating fascism, but whether or not he should be celebrated is very much up for debate. Then we have international thugs and murderers such as Winnie Mandela and Che Guevara who for some reason or other are heralded and celebrated by the very people who are currently protesting injustices across the ages, rather selective one would think ? - I'd say you've made an almighty big assumption there with little to no evidence. But there being potentially negative influences on the world isn't what we're talking about now, and they don't (to my knowledge) have statues in their honour in the UK. The point most seem to be missing about the bloke in Bristol is that he didn't have a statue erected for being a slaver, he had it erected as he built hospitals and schools for the ordinary working class people of the city, so for all his deemed faults he did much good and as such should be celebrated. - No he shouldn't. Just as it's crass that some in Medellin celebrate Pablo Escobar for building whole neighbourhoods for the economically disadvantaged, it is crass and unnecessary for us to "celebrate" a prominent slaver. The bottom line is that you cannot use today's attitudes to judge those from centuries past as it was different times and different rules and in my opinion the history deniers are no better than the ISIS thugs who destroy anything that doesn't fit with their views, sadly these sorts of views seem to be becoming more and more prevalent in today's society and that should give us reason to be afraid rather than to applaud these misinformed ignorant thugs. - Comparing BLM to ISIS is, unequivocally, stupid. One is a murderous death cult which took over a country and ransacked ancient sights, another threw a statue in a river. Your whole point here seems to be that you don't want to/shouldn't have to think about things in a way that makes you uncomfortable, and it's easier to lash out and say "what about modern slavery? What about Winnie Mandela? They're just like ISIS!" when it has little to do with what we're actually discussing. No, my whole point here is the arrogance of some in this generation that they think they know it all and only their views count is what really annoys me. If there's any counter view it's closed down immediately by the pack / mob mentality and accusations of Racism etc thrown. It's pathetic. Ironically a violent criminal is being held up as a pillar of virtue, meanwhile a statue of a man who gave most of his fortune to educate and assist the poorest in his community is the bad guy. Seriously, you couldn't make it up................. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Blades Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 This has certainly been a thread for outing the racists. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dee Man Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, WATTOO said: No, my whole point here is the arrogance of some in this generation that they think they know it all and only their views count is what really annoys me. If there's any counter view it's closed down immediately by the pack / mob mentality and accusations of Racism etc thrown. It's pathetic. Ironically a violent criminal is being held up as a pillar of virtue, meanwhile a statue of a man who gave most of his fortune to educate and assist the poorest in his community is the bad guy. Seriously, you couldn't make it up................. Who's this violent criminal that's being held up as a pillar of virtue, out of interest? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 1 minute ago, Brother Blades said: This has certainly been a thread for outing the racists. If my views make me a racist in your eyes or anyone else's then so be it, i'll certainly not be losing any sleep over it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 Just now, Dee Man said: Who's this violent criminal that's being held up as a pillar of virtue, out of interest? George. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacksgranda Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, WATTOO said: No, my whole point here is the arrogance of some in this generation that they think they know it all and only their views count is what really annoys me. If there's any counter view it's closed down immediately by the pack / mob mentality and accusations of Racism etc thrown. It's pathetic. Ironically a violent criminal is being held up as a pillar of virtue, meanwhile a statue of a man who gave most of his fortune to educate and assist the poorest in his community is the bad guy. Seriously, you couldn't make it up................. Who's holding him up as a pillar of virtue? The guy was murdered. That's a bit disingenuous. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dee Man Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 (edited) 2 minutes ago, WATTOO said: George. That's what I suspected. I'll leave it at that. Edit: In fact, will I f**k. How come one person's past isn't important here but another one's is? Spectacular double-standards. Edited June 9, 2020 by Dee Man 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genuine Hibs Fan Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 (edited) 8 minutes ago, WATTOO said: No, my whole point here is the arrogance of some in this generation that they think they know it all and only their views count is what really annoys me. If there's any counter view it's closed down immediately by the pack / mob mentality and accusations of Racism etc thrown. It's pathetic. Ironically a violent criminal is being held up as a pillar of virtue, meanwhile a statue of a man who gave most of his fortune to educate and assist the poorest in his community is the bad guy. Seriously, you couldn't make it up................. I think it's more folk saying he shouldn't have been asphyxiated to death while he begged for his life by a police officer mate, but you carry on watching the point soar over your head. As for the rest, what's the point? It's just your standard "the younger generation than me is x,y,z" thing. I don't see your counter view being closed down immediately, no one's removing your right to say or do whatever you want about the matter. E.TA and I take it you'll just not bother with any of the rest? Of course not, because then you would have to engage with something. Which again, is your whole point. It's too hard. Edited June 9, 2020 by Genuine Hibs Fan 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 1 minute ago, WATTOO said: No, my whole point here is the arrogance of some in this generation that they think they know it all and only their views count is what really annoys me. If there's any counter view it's closed down immediately by the pack / mob mentality and accusations of Racism etc thrown. It's pathetic. Ironically a violent criminal is being held up as a pillar of virtue, meanwhile a statue of a man who gave most of his fortune to educate and assist the poorest in his community is the bad guy. Seriously, you couldn't make it up................. Just point me to the precise tone of your face and forehead right now; I'm thinking Redcurrant Glory is on the money: https://www.dulux.co.uk/en/colour-details/h_red 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 8 minutes ago, WATTOO said: Seriously, you couldn't make it up................. Sadly not. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Moonster Posted June 9, 2020 Share Posted June 9, 2020 Really didn't see this coming from WATTOO, one of the most liberal and diverse guys on here. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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