George Floyd/Black Lives Matter Protests

[Steve_Wilkos]

Just to set something straight.

I was born in Middlesbrough and now live in Stockton-on-Tees. So, I am qualified to say that Teesside is packed with beautiful architecture and even more beautiful people.

[effeffsee_the2nd]

1 hour ago, Mr Waldo said:

Children I know are taught about the slave trade but they are not really taught about  the Arab slave trade, or the African slave trade, or the South American slave trade.   Or the fact that,according to some reliable sources, their are more slaves today than in the 19th centuary?

you're right in that you say slavery has existed since the dawn of time and still exists in some forms today although by now it is illegal no matter where it is.  the big BIG  difference is only western European empires did so on an industrial scale and for several hundred years to a specific group of people & these countries would not be as wealthy and secure as they are today had it not been for their slave related activities in the past.

[coprolite]

2 hours ago, 101 said:

Forgive my ignorance but I guess the reason we are taught about the Atlantic Slave Trade is because that's what we (the Scots/ Brits) were closest aligned to and made a hell of a lot of cash from.

The other slave trades to mention as far as I know didn't have the same level of UK interference. There is a lot of evil shit in the world but I don't thin it's realistic to teach everyone everything at school, for example the street names in Glasgow in particular if you didn't know that why not? Take some interest in where you live and the people that lived there only by doing that will we avoid the atrocities the generations made before.

As for modern slavery I did learn about that at school but not in any great detail however I doubt folk care now if they can't see people in chains they will brush it off. A number of companies that trade in the UK use prison labour in the US which is basically slavery. I don't think people will stop using Asda or McDonald's - price is the big driver in the UK and US not ethics

The world has been interconnected for longer than many people think. 

Part of the reason that the Atlantic slave trade existed was a ready supply of African slaves from African slave traders, which happened to be in a very convenient place tradewinds wise.  

That doesn't excuse the barbarity that took place at all.  If the point of history (as a subject of study) is to stop us making mistakes twice then i think we should try to understand the conditions that can lead to things going wrong. That doesn't need to be limited to things that have involved us. 

[Theroadlesstravelled]

 

[Granny Danger]

I posted a couple of days back about the role of the police unions.  It looks like they will be one of the tougher nuts to crack.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/08/politics/police-union-reform-protests/index.html

“They've become far too powerful. They form political action committees. They donate to district attorneys' race or state attorneys' race, state senators and representatives and so forth," Charles Ramsey, a former DC police chief and former Philadelphia police commissioner, said Sunday on CNN. "And then we wonder why you can't get anything done."

 

 

Decades of collective bargaining has resulted in police forces where department chiefs have little control, and the unions have set the terms for internal investigations. Even if an officer is formally punished, nuances in the contract often help officers prevail on appeal, Serpas said.

For instance, some police union agreements have outlined how long police leadership must wait to investigate an incident, how they can ask the police officers questions and what they can ask, and how quickly the department must complete an investigation. Taken together, it puts the disciplinary power in the hands of the unions, which are set up to protect police officers' jobs.

Sometimes, police officers of color face discrimination within their own departments, and police unions have been complicit in allowing these inequalities to fester and survive, experts tell CNN.

 

[Sergeant Wilson]

6 hours ago, ICTChris said:

We studied slavery in Standard grade history. We had a mock debate about the abolition of slavery and I was chosen to speak for the pro slavery side. I can’t recall exactly what arguments I used, I think most of the arguments we covered were religious in nature.

I had forgotten about that until right now, what a really odd situation to put children in. I was about 13 or 14 at the time and was asked to argue for slavery in front of the class. How strange.

Did you win?

[Jacksgranda]

7 hours ago, Mr Waldo said:

Without going into the rights and wrongs, simply because it did some right and it did some wrong, but ask the people of Hong Kong, or Singapore, or a few other places with shee-ite neighbours if the Empire was evil.

Democracy, a bad thing?

And yes, I am aware of the bad things the British Empire did but I think it is more complex than evil...or good.

Personally, in the life of this planet, I believe the British Empire was a force for good....if you compare to what if it never existed.  

Surprised you haven't been hounded off the board for going against the received wisdom re the empire.

My take: our empire was the best of a mixed bag/least worst.

After suffering Japanes occupation, Lee Kuan Yew, was quite happy to have the British back. Although he was even happier when we went away again.

[Jacksgranda]

7 hours ago, ICTChris said:

We studied slavery in Standard grade history. We had a mock debate about the abolition of slavery and I was chosen to speak for the pro slavery side. I can’t recall exactly what arguments I used, I think most of the arguments we covered were religious in nature.

I had forgotten about that until right now, what a really odd situation to put children in. I was about 13 or 14 at the time and was asked to argue for slavery in front of the class. How strange.

Did you win?*
ETA: Too slow, Sarge first with the big questions as usual

Edited June 9, 2020 by Jacksgranda

[Detournement]

7 hours ago, Mr Waldo said:

 

Personally, in the life of this planet, I believe the British Empire was a force for good....if you compare to what if it never existed.  

This is moronic but I'll reply anyway. 

Historians have shown that GDP per capita was actually lower in India in 1947 than when the British arrived in the 18th century. Any development that actually occured was solely to aid Britain in plundering the sub continent's natural resources and labour. 

The same thing was true all over the Empire. It was a horrific experience for the colonised people. 

[Benjamin_Nevis]

8 hours ago, The_Kincardine said:

While England paddled up to its ankles in Empire we Scots were up to our knees in conquest and slavery and, since 1707, built our country around it.  The blood on the butchers' apron was, pound for pound, more likely to be let by Scots.

[coprolite]

11 minutes ago, Detournement said:

This is moronic but I'll reply anyway. 

Historians have shown that GDP per capita was actually lower in India in 1947 than when the British arrived in the 18th century. Any development that actually occured was solely to aid Britain in plundering the sub continent's natural resources and labour. 

The same thing was true all over the Empire. It was a horrific experience for the colonised people. 

Colonialism was shite.

The choice available to the British government of the day wasn't colonial India vs independent India. 

The alternative to Britain colonising India was to let France do it.  There is a school of thought that the French and Belgian colonies were even worse than Britain's. 

I agree that "a force for good" is hard to justify. You could plausibly argue that it was "a force for not as bad as it might have been" 

[Detournement]

All the European empires were a joint enterprise that worked together. 

Trying to say which ones were better or worse is like ranking serial killers by compassion for their victims. 

[Jacksgranda]

2 minutes ago, coprolite said:

Colonialism was shite.

The choice available to the British government of the day wasn't colonial India vs independent India. 

The alternative to Britain colonising India was to let France do it.  There is a school of thought that the French and Belgian colonies were even worse than Britain's. 

I agree that "a force for good" is hard to justify. You could plausibly argue that it was "a force for not as bad as it might have been" 

I don't think the Dutch and Germans covered themselves in glory, either.

[WhiteRoseKillie]

10 hours ago, MixuFruit said:

I've passed through Middlesbrough once and on an otherwise sunny day in Weardale and North Yorkshire, that place was covered in black clouds. An entirely pointless town these days.

 

10 hours ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

I had to go through it on a train that had been diverted. The announcer said the usual next stop will be Middlesbrough. The train stopped at what I thought was a derelict station, obviously an old one, the new one will be just ahead, but no. That was it, derelict. Then it left and I was relieved I was heading to Bradford. Derelict and worse than Bradford.

 

10 hours ago, SweeperDee said:

Middlesbrough, and Teeside at large is one of the most miserable, backwards holes I’ve had the misfortune of spending more than a day in. Fucking bleak hellscape with locals who are your typical, idiotic, racist pieces of shite.

I attended a course at Holme House Prison a few years ago, and accommodation was at the Swallow Hotel in Stockton, which really is a boil on Middlesbrough's arse. Totally grey and desolate, like a low budget Nineteen Eighty Four set. As the hotel parking was the top two storeys of the Council multi-storey, we were warned not to leave any valuables on display when we parked, "like sweets or chewing gum".  The first place I ever saw a 99p Shop, "Because Every Penny Matters".

[Mr Waldo]

26 minutes ago, Detournement said:

This is moronic but I'll reply anyway. 

Historians have shown that GDP per capita was actually lower in India in 1947 than when the British arrived in the 18th century. Any development that actually occured was solely to aid Britain in plundering the sub continent's natural resources and labour. 

The same thing was true all over the Empire. It was a horrific experience for the colonised people. 

Moronic?  India did not exist in the 18th century. It is now the largest democracy in the world. Would that have happened if it wasn't for the British Empire?  Would they have fared better under the Spanish, French or Portuguese? Or even the Mughals who were collecting taxes of over 50%?

[Newbornbairn]

2 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

I posted a couple of days back about the role of the police unions.  It looks like they will be one of the tougher nuts to crack.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/08/politics/police-union-reform-protests/index.html

“They've become far too powerful. They form political action committees. They donate to district attorneys' race or state attorneys' race, state senators and representatives and so forth," Charles Ramsey, a former DC police chief and former Philadelphia police commissioner, said Sunday on CNN. "And then we wonder why you can't get anything done."

 

 

Decades of collective bargaining has resulted in police forces where department chiefs have little control, and the unions have set the terms for internal investigations. Even if an officer is formally punished, nuances in the contract often help officers prevail on appeal, Serpas said.

For instance, some police union agreements have outlined how long police leadership must wait to investigate an incident, how they can ask the police officers questions and what they can ask, and how quickly the department must complete an investigation. Taken together, it puts the disciplinary power in the hands of the unions, which are set up to protect police officers' jobs.

Sometimes, police officers of color face discrimination within their own departments, and police unions have been complicit in allowing these inequalities to fester and survive, experts tell CNN.

 

Isn't that true of unions in the UK too though? They finance and have influence in the Labour Party which gives them political influence not just in Westminster but most council offices all over the country. Whilst a lot of union power has been broken, it's still strong in things like the railways and education - it's notoriously difficult to fire bad teachers so I'm told. 

[D Angelo Barksdale]

2 minutes ago, Detournement said:

All the European empires were a joint enterprise that worked together. 

Trying to say which ones were better or worse is like ranking serial killers by compassion for their victims. 

Classic British exceptionalism. We were the best colonists and the least worst slave traders.

[coprolite]

Just now, NewBornBairn said:

Isn't that true of unions in the UK too though? They finance and have influence in the Labour Party which gives them political influence not just in Westminster but most council offices all over the country. Whilst a lot of union power has been broken, it's still strong in things like the railways and education - it's notoriously difficult to fire bad teachers so I'm told. 

The uk police aren't allowed a union. 

[WhiteRoseKillie]

7 hours ago, Steve_Wilkos said:

Just to set something straight.

I was born in Middlesbrough and now live in Stockton-on-Tees. So, I am qualified to say that Teesside is packed with beautiful architecture and even more beautiful people.

..and the air is obviously still full of mind-altering chemicals.

[Newbornbairn]

1 minute ago, coprolite said:

The uk police aren't allowed a union. 

Looks like that's a good thing then if it's been a factor in avoiding US-style policing and the harm that does to society.