George Floyd/Black Lives Matter Protests

[tamthebam]

2 hours ago, Empty It said:

Remember America is a country founded on chasing out anyone who wasnt white and held zoos with people of different ethnicities as exhibitions. I hope it does happen but I can't see that shit show ever changing its ways.

It wasn't just the US...

Somali village, Marine Gardens, Portobello, 1910.

[Guest JTS98]

9 hours ago, Aladdin said:

The protests are a watershed moment in terms of maintaining awareness of the problem until something is done about it.  Theres been numerous similar killings by the US police in the past, a few weeks of outrage on Twitter and then nothing more until the next time it happens.  Similar to the issue of gun control, in terms of nothing being done, except this time there is cross community support and momentum behind the movement.  Couple with the fact its election year, now is the time to get political support and get results.

 It would also appear that there were a fairly large number of white Americans who didnt fully appreciate the issues black Americans faced but are now supportive of change.  What the exact changes are, I dont know, but I would expect increased representation of black Americans on the police forces and a demilitarisation of the police wouldnt hurt.

 

I'm not sure how different this is to the Rodney King incident in terms of reaction. That didn't lead to long-term change.

A lot of people looking in from the outside will just see looting and violence. The Rodney King beating wasn't used to enact real change. Maybe if it had been, things would be genuinely changing now. The concern at the moment is that the arguments are the same. The police shouldn't be racist. They should be nice.

That doesn't work.

[Old Pack]

I'm not sure how different this is to the Rodney King incident in terms of reaction. That didn't lead to long-term change.

A lot of people looking in from the outside will just see looting and violence. The Rodney King beating wasn't used to enact real change. Maybe if it had been, things would be genuinely changing now. The concern at the moment is that the arguments are the same. The police shouldn't be racist. They should be nice.

That doesn't work.

The stats say anybody is fare game to be killed by the police in the USA no matter your creed , colour or legality.

[RandomGuy.]

"White lives matter" is the equivalent of a 5 year old trying to steal their parents attention because his twin sister is getting attention after falling and banging her puss.

Its pathetic.

[Guest JTS98]

36 minutes ago, Old Pack said:

The stats say anybody is fare game to be killed by the police in the USA no matter your creed , colour or legality.

Two points there.

Firstly, that is and isn't true. There are about ten million arrests in the USA every year and around 1,000 killings by the police. If you assume that some of those deaths are justified, criminals threatening the police or bystanders etc, then the actual chances of anyone who is not an immediate threat to public safety being killed by the police during arrest are tiny. Much bigger than in the UK, for example, but tiny all the same. Your chances of being killed by American police outside of an arrest situation are non-existent. The vast majority of Americans will not be killed by the police or ever know anyone who is killed by the police.

Above zero is too many, but I think some people have the idea that American police are cruising around shooting black people at random. The numbers tell us that is simply not the case.

Secondly, while it is true that American police kill a lot more citizens of their own country (of all races) than other police forces do, the inequalities in American society mean that this clearly affects the black population more, since they are more likely to be involved in crime and more likely to come into contact with the police. This makes it a race issue, but I think a lot of people are failing (or refusing?) to look at the root of the race issue. It can't be solved by telling people racism is bad.

[NotThePars]

The concern at the moment is that the arguments are the same. The police shouldn't be racist. They should be nice.

That doesn't work.

 

I’m not sure where you’re looking but the argument has mutated into abolition/ defunding the police. You’ve been arguing against this liberal straw man that people are protesting to “raise awareness” when the demands are far greater than that and the critiques deeper than “racism is bad”.

[Guest JTS98]

12 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

 

I’m not sure where you’re looking but the argument has mutated into abolition/ defunding the police. You’ve been arguing against this liberal straw man that people are protesting to “raise awareness” when the demands are far greater than that and the critiques deeper than “racism is bad”.

Abolishing/defunding the police is one of the worst public policy arguments made in the history of the western world.

A ludicrous over-reaction that completely misses the point of the problem. It's a horrendous idea.

I've only skimmed the news yesterday and today, but surely nobody of any standing is suggesting this?

Also, it's not a straw man when you literally ask someone what he wants done and then argue against the suggestion he gives you. As I did.

Edited June 24, 2020 by JTS98

[Mr Waldo]

20 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

Abolishing/defunding the police is one of the worst public policy arguments made in the history of the western world.

A ludicrous over-reaction that completely misses the point of the problem. It's a horrendous idea.

I've only skimmed the news yesterday and today, but surely nobody of any standing is suggesting this?

 

Black Lives Matter could be clearer in explaining exactly what they mean, or maybe that's their plan.

UK video.

[Mr. Brightside]

Defunding the police and abolishing the police are completely different things.

[Guest JTS98]

1 minute ago, Mr. Brightside said:

Defunding the police and abolishing the police are completely different things.

Indeed. Both dreadful ideas though.

[Guest JTS98]

8 minutes ago, Mr Waldo said:

Black Lives Matter could be clearer in explaining exactly what they mean, or maybe that's their plan.

UK video.

There is absolutely no sound intellectual basis for this. It is absolute lunacy.

I've read plenty of editorials and articles about this. I've watched that video and read the link.

These people are stupid. It's an idea so bad it's hard to know where to start. State monopoly on violence is a very important pillar of our society.

[madwullie]

17 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

Indeed. Both dreadful ideas though.

In some American cities the police are driving around in military hardware. It's hard to argue that mine proof trucks are a necessary part of policing a community. Sure I read somewhere that the nypd has something like in the top 10 highest military spending on the planet (that might be wrong) 

Demilitarising the police would go a long way towards making them view themselves less as soldiers. Some of the training videos I've seen of the US police aren't a kick in the arse off army training either. Sure it might not stop them from being racist, but it would surely help stop them being so trigger happy. 

Edited June 24, 2020 by madwullie

[Guest JTS98]

An example of the idiocy surrounding this suggestion can be found in this article.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/sunday/floyd-abolish-defund-police.html

On the issue of police reform, the writer says this;

"Why on earth would we think the same reforms would work now? We need to change our demands. The surest way of reducing police violence is to reduce the power of the police, by cutting budgets and the number of officers."

The sad thing is, the writer is halfway right. Police reform will fail. You cannot eradicate racism and bad outcomes through police reform. But the idea that we can replace the police and their violence monopoly (as much as we accept that as a society) with 'community investment' is off the scale lunacy. Especially in an armed society like America.

Who do you call if someone breaks into your house?

State monopoly of violence is essential to protect the public. Community funding is a great idea, but defunding or abolishing the police is utter stupidity and should be called out as such.

[Guest JTS98]

1 minute ago, madwullie said:

In some American cities the police are driving around in military hardware. It's hard to argue that mine proof trucks are a necessary part of policing a community. Sure I read somewhere that the nypd has something like some of the highest military spending on the planet (that might be wrong) 

Demilitarising the police would go a long way towards making them view themselves less as soldiers. Some of the training videos I've seen of the US police aren't a kick in the arse off army training either. Sure it might not stop them from being racist, but it would surely help stop them being so trigger happy. 

I agree completely with demilitarising the police. That's a different thing though.

[madwullie]

Just now, JTS98 said:

I agree completely with demilitarising the police. That's a different thing though.

But is it not tied to the funding they have? 

[Mr. Brightside]

It's more to do with not sending the police to deal with anything and everything. Their remit has been expanded so much that they are expected to deal with pretty much everything. People are saying that the funding police get could be better used if channelled somewhere else like social projects and mental health advisers and so on.

[Guest JTS98]

2 minutes ago, madwullie said:

But is it not tied to the funding they have? 

Everything they do is tied to the funding they have.

The point is not to take away the funding. That's a really bad idea. The point is to spend the money better.

If we defund or abolish the police and use the money for community projects, who do you call if someone breaks into your house?

[welshbairn]

3 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

defunding or abolishing the police is utter stupidity and should be called out as such.

It's about abolishing police departments where the problems are too endemic for reform, and building again, not having no police.

[Guest JTS98]

2 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

It's about abolishing police departments where the problems are too endemic for reform, and building again, not having no police.

Read what they say they'll do. They want to replace these police departments with community funding. Again, who do you call if someone is breaking into your house?

Who gets to decide who can use violence?

On whose authority do they wield violence?

It's an idea with logical and philosophical holes you could drive a bus through.

[madwullie]

5 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

Everything they do is tied to the funding they have.

The point is not to take away the funding. That's a really bad idea. The point is to spend the money better.

If we defund or abolish the police and use the money for community projects, who do you call if someone breaks into your house?

The police. But is there any need to call the police if there's an argument in the family for eg - could social Work or a community team of some description not be first port of call. Ditto with a mental health issue. 

Part of the problem is that there are a lot of incidents that don't necessarily need a couple of guys with guns to show up, but the police are the default people to call then things can escalate unnecessarily 

 

Edit like @Mr Brightside... said

Edited June 24, 2020 by madwullie