WoSFL Premier Division thread

[Vanderbilt]

2 hours ago, Shanner said:

I don't think Clydebank have ever been the highest placed team with a licence. Talbot would have had the pleasure!

 

We haven’t and it’s not about Clydebank.

It will be embarrassing if the West can’t provide a club for the promotion play off again.

It should be a minimum requirement to have or be working towards licensing with a timescale put on it for compliance to play at tier 6 or the place goes to the highest placed licensed club.Whats unfair about that?

[FairWeatherFan]

4 hours ago, Shanner said:

in what way does this actually undermine anything? whst are you saying is devalued? 

Nobody's saying they should face a random team - it's the highest-placed team satisfying all the criteria for promotion. Giving the East teams a free hit at promotion against an SOS side as we currently do is a bit farcical in itself as they're benefiting from the WOS winners lack of a bit of paper as you put it. 

 

3 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I'm saying "random draw" there because that's how the 3-way Play-off is conducted to determine the home field advantage and order of the ties.

And you're the one complaining about a team getting a free hit at promotion, while advocating for team(s) getting a free hit at promotion.

 

3 hours ago, Shanner said:

You also said "random team" in a post before that.

As for your second paragraph - no I'm not and I'm not sure how you've arrived at that conclusion.

 

[Shanner]

15 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

 

 

 

That clears it up.

[An Absolute Imposter]

3 hours ago, virginton said:

What eligible and qualifying clubs - under the existing rules - are being held back? 

There's no demonstrable 'bottleneck' in the EoS. Every obvious candidate to move up has easily done so already; with plenty of less obvious candidates now with a chance of doing so as well in the near future. 

There's no demonstrable 'bottleneck' in the SoS. Dalbeattie were flushed out of the LL on merit and have been down for one season only. And with the best will in the world to these clubs, previous candidates like St Cuthbert's/Creetown are not exactly being cruelly denied their obvious place competing at a much higher level. 

Which leaves us with the West of Scotland. A league that has failed to produced a licensed winner to compete in most years; and when it did, its entrant fared as well as English clubs did in the Champions' League this season (hubris -> bottle-job -> dismal exit). 

It's really not an issue for the pyramid structure as a whole then: it's a WoS issue only. That might well change in the future but at the moment there is no such bottleneck. 

For me it is a pyramid issue; this applies equally to the club 42 play-off. Surely we all want a fluid pyramid were clubs are moving up and down the system as their onfield ability allows.

This is working well in the EOS and WOS Tier 6 down, I am fully aware it's not applicable in the SOS and I am vocal about this.

Tier 5 need to jump through hoops to get to Tier 4. How an it be judged in any way fair, after a 30+ campaign a club then has to play 4 more games to get their reward.

Tier 6 again league champions should not be put through a potential 3-way play-off. Yes, there is the additional caveat of the SFA licensing requirement, which really should become a non-problem sooner rather than later if all parties oonvolved sort themselves out.

I do feel the LL have a perfect get out of jail card having 3 leagues at Tier 6. Giving up and managing 3 relegation to multiple regions can be problematic.

And yes I know we fundamentally disagree with how the West of the country setup should be. There is an imbalance with the SOS having the one division with only 12 clubs.  

For me it's geographical nonsense to have a South Region that only covers a part of the South, it should include the Borders too.

I know you will shoot me down, but your reasoning till now, I don't agree with.

[An Absolute Imposter]

3 hours ago, PossilYM said:

Broxie the Bear

Great minds think alike, brother.

[vikingTON]

57 minutes ago, An Absolute Imposter said:

For me it is a pyramid issue; this applies equally to the club 42 play-off. Surely we all want a fluid pyramid were clubs are moving up and down the system as their onfield ability allows.

This is working well in the EOS and WOS Tier 6 down, I am fully aware it's not applicable in the SOS and I am vocal about this.

Tier 5 need to jump through hoops to get to Tier 4. How an it be judged in any way fair, after a 30+ campaign a club then has to play 4 more games to get their reward.

Tier 6 again league champions should not be put through a potential 3-way play-off. Yes, there is the additional caveat of the SFA licensing requirement, which really should become a non-problem sooner rather than later if all parties oonvolved sort themselves out.

I do feel the LL have a perfect get out of jail card having 3 leagues at Tier 6. Giving up and managing 3 relegation to multiple regions can be problematic.

And yes I know we fundamentally disagree with how the West of the country setup should be. There is an imbalance with the SOS having the one division with only 12 clubs.  

For me it's geographical nonsense to have a South Region that only covers a part of the South, it should include the Borders too.

I know you will shoot me down, but your reasoning till now, I don't agree with.

None of these points are relevant to your claim that there's a bottleneck in the current system preventing clubs from progressing on merit through the (LL path) pyramid. 

There categorically isn't a bottleneck affecting EoS teams from progressing. 

There categorically isn't one affecting the SoS either. 

So rather than being a 'pyramid' problem, it is in fact a minor issue for one particular, recently-formed league. And one that wouldn't actually be solved by your clamouring for automatic promotion for all league champions anyway. 

Edited April 18 by vikingTON

[jimbaxters]

4 minutes ago, virginton said:

None of these points are relevant to your claim that there's a bottleneck in the current system preventing clubs from progressing on merit through the (LL path) pyramid. 

There categorically isn't a bottleneck affecting EoS teams from progressing. 

There categorically isn't one affecting the SoS either. 

So rather than being a 'pyramid' problem, it is in fact a minor issue for one particular, recently-formed league. And one that wouldn't actually be solved by your clamouring for automatic promotion for all league champions anyway. 

The fact that there are three clubs (potentially) taking part in a play off for one promotion spot is the very definition of bottleneck.

[An Absolute Imposter]

4 hours ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

The SFA - exactly the same as the West, South and East Leagues 

It always comes back to the SFA doesn't it. Piss up in a brewery, comes to mind. Does feel that they ain't interested in the pyramid that much.

Surely, Cowdenbeath would want more fluidity, both above and below. I know you are mid-table at the moment but fairer access to tier 4 should be a given.

Same applies to coming up from Tier 6, if there is more fluidity in both directions with the LL, surely it makes it a better product and will improve revenue for all clubs.

p.s. fair play to your club for the honesty shown in why they voted for the continuation of b clubs. There is no valid reason I can see to limiting leagues to 16 clubs if an increase of 2 will help clubs financially. Surely that should be simple to sell to the governing body, but obviously not.

Edited April 18 by An Absolute Imposter

[vikingTON]

6 minutes ago, jimbaxters said:

The fact that there are three clubs (potentially) taking part in a play off for one promotion spot is the very definition of bottleneck.

No it isn't, because literally none of the clubs taking part have been denied promotion on a regular basis. 

What sort of bottleneck allows Bonnyrigg, Bo'ness, Tranent and Linlithgow all to sail through to a higher level without a problem? Have St Cuthbert's Wanderers been cruelly denied their right to err, stinking the place out and conceding 200 goals in one season at a higher level?

[An Absolute Imposter]

20 minutes ago, virginton said:

None of these points are relevant to your claim that there's a bottleneck in the current system preventing clubs from progressing on merit through the (LL path) pyramid. 

There categorically isn't a bottleneck affecting EoS teams from progressing. 

There categorically isn't one affecting the SoS either. 

So rather than being a 'pyramid' problem, it is in fact a minor issue for one particular, recently-formed league. And one that wouldn't actually be solved by your clamouring for automatic promotion for all league champions anyway. 

I refer you to @jimbaxters post. I am not a fan of any club in the WOS. My point mirrors jb's. League champions shouldn't have to enter a dog fight to earn their reward.

[jimbaxters]

5 minutes ago, virginton said:

No it isn't, because literally none of the clubs taking part have been denied promotion on a regular basis. 

What sort of bottleneck allows Bonnyrigg, Bo'ness, Tranent and Linlithgow all to sail through to a higher level without a problem? Have St Cuthbert's Wanderers been cruelly denied their right to err, stinking the place out and conceding 200 goals in one season at a higher level?

The system is a bottleneck, the reality has been different for the reasons you have listed. Any pyramid where licensed champions don't automatically get promotion is flawed. The play offs which exist to get into the LL and to get into Scottish League Two are an embarrassment. Add to that the fact that Club 42 don't go straight through the trapdoor and its a minter for the "Scottish Football Pyramid"

Edited April 18 by jimbaxters

[An Absolute Imposter]

2 minutes ago, virginton said:

No it isn't, because literally none of the clubs taking part have been denied promotion on a regular basis. 

What sort of bottleneck allows Bonnyrigg, Bo'ness, Tranent and Linlithgow all to sail through to a higher level without a problem? Have St Cuthbert's Wanderers been cruelly denied their right to err, stinking the place out and conceding 200 goals in one season at a higher level?

Repeating myself; it's not about individual clubs, it's about the pyramid system.

If there were 2 leagues below there should be 2 promotion places. 3 I'll grant makes it awkward but 1 out of 3 is not a pyramid. If there were 4 leagues below then you can justifiably have only 2 spots available.

Surely we all want to see a fluid system, my original post was not about trying to get WOS by into the LL, but about the integrity of the pyramid with regard to promotion/relegation and licensing.

[An Absolute Imposter]

2 minutes ago, jimbaxters said:

The system is a bottleneck, the reality has been different for the reasons you have listed. Any pyramid where licensed champions don't automatically get promotion is flawed. The play offs which exist to get into the LL and to get into Scottish League Two are an embarrassment. Add to that the fact thatClub 42 don't go straight through the trapdoor and its a minter for the "Scottish Football Pyramid"

Can't believe we are in total agreement. The planet  must have knocked off its axis or something.

[jimbaxters]

Just now, An Absolute Imposter said:

Repeating myself; it's not about individual clubs, it's about the pyramid system.

If there were 2 leagues below there should be 2 promotion places. 3 I'll grant makes it awkward but 1 out of 3 is not a pyramid. If there were 4 leagues below then you can justifiably have only 2 spots available.

Surely we all want to see a fluid system, my original post was not about trying to get WOS by into the LL, but about the integrity of the pyramid with regard to promotion/relegation and licensing.

You keep saying that. It would be fair to say that won't be the case if you're one of the 42 clubs, especially Stranraer/Bonnyrigg/Clyde at the moment.

[jimbaxters]

Just now, An Absolute Imposter said:

Can't believe we are in total agreement. The planet  must have knocked off its axis or something.

Haha aye...although he's right about the SoS clubs stinking the place out. 

And...we're back!

[An Absolute Imposter]

1 minute ago, jimbaxters said:

You keep saying that. It would be fair to say that won't be the case if you're one of the 42 clubs, especially Stranraer/Bonnyrigg/Clyde at the moment.

It works both ways though at the moment it's 'difficult' to get relegated and fecking hard work to get promoted. Surely the system shouldn't be rewarding failure and punishing success.

If any of these clubs get relegated how hard is it for them to get back.

First win a league then go through 2 play-off rounds, that's just not right.

Let's not fall out again.

[An Absolute Imposter]

4 minutes ago, jimbaxters said:

Haha aye...although he's right about the SoS clubs stinking the place out. 

And...we're back!

You are begging for a red dot, brother.

Personally, I don't think it does the SOS as a whole any favours this current setup. There is a notable gap between the top clubs in the league and the bottom. I don't see how the top clubs n improve the way it is.

I have witnessed how Threave have developed on field over past 2 seasons playing consistently against teams of a similar calibre.

[glensmad]

11 minutes ago, An Absolute Imposter said:

Surely the system shouldn't be rewarding failure and punishing success.

That's exactly the reason why the WoSFL changed its rules at last summer's AGM, in the event of the Premier champions winning promotion to the Lowland League and no team being relegated from the LL into the WoSFL.

The previous rule was that the third bottom team in each league would be spared from relegation, but that changed to the fourth top team in the leagues below all being promoted, with the three teams being relegated being the certainty.

[An Absolute Imposter]

31 minutes ago, glensmad said:

That's exactly the reason why the WoSFL changed its rules at last summer's AGM, in the event of the Premier champions winning promotion to the Lowland League and no team being relegated from the LL into the WoSFL.

The previous rule was that the third bottom team in each league would be spared from relegation, but that changed to the fourth top team in the leagues below all being promoted, with the three teams being relegated being the certainty.

Quire simply, how it should be. 

Be careful though can't be having any positivity coming from  the WOS; you are the great enemy of all that is good. Know your place.

[An Absolute Imposter]

On 17/04/2024 at 13:26, An Absolute Imposter said:

Sitting having a coffee and with SOS and EOS definitely taking part the play-off, realised that I didn't know who ir how many clubs in the WOS Prem are licensed, so had a look.

Some interesting little facts I found out, I can be a total anorak about facts and figures.

EOS Prem has 11 licensed clubs, occupying places 1 to 11. So will be losing 3 non- licensed clubs. Their 1st Div has 8 with it looking likely all 3 promotion places will be licensed clubs. Only Whitburn can realistically finish in top 3, their facilities appear up to scratch, so they might be close if licensing was allowed. 

Here in the SOS we have 5 licensed clubs in our Prem Div  . Top 3 places are licensed clubs. Just as well there is no relegation as bottom 2 clubs are licensed .

In WOS 8 of the 16 are licensed, which considering West entered pyramid a few seasons after East Juniors and we had the 2 season covid nonsense, is pretty decent to be fair; will come to the SFA and their games in a bit.

Of the 8 one looks lost to Div 1, Medda, in Div 1 there are only 2 licensed clubs; Glencairn and the North Ayrshire Gers, both of whom are involved in promotion battle.

Across each league the number of licensed clubs shows up the problem with licensing at this stage.

EOS have 26 out of 61 clubs I think, Stirling Uni don't count. Here in the SOS we have a massive 5 out if 11, Stranraer SOS again are invisible.

In the WOS, it's 15 out of 80.

So how can the SFA allow a pyramid system where so many clubs are basically excluded from it?

And how can they expect the biggest section of the pyramid to be fully committed with this 'suspension' in place. I think we are all aware if Beith's challenges with their Licensing journey. 

How many other clubs have been caught in this 'suspension net'.

There are a myriad of reasons why the SFA and others at the top of the pyramid are only paying lip service to the pyramid. If they care about grassroots football one jot, then either open up the pyramid to all the clubs or close the door and allow clubs, leagues, associations to decide if its worth being in the pyramid or not.

p.s. not looking to start a back door argument about juniors v seniors. Just think clubs have a right at upcoming agm's to discuss points like these and give their association a mandate to at least approach the SFA and ask questions. The SFA have acted like a dictatorship for too long, hold them to account

Another long winded post from that horse pest from doon Sooth. I'm bored waiting on the vet arriving.

When I posted this yesterday  expected a reply or two and that would be the end of it.

It shows that the non-league football community are indeed invested in this fledgling pyramid we have. This is why I feel its important that all the leagues from Tier 5 down work together as a unit pushing at those above and the SFA to keep the pyramid moving forward. I am a great believer that stagnation is a slow and painful death knell.

The posts have shown there is a bit of a divide and disattachment particularly between the LL and the leagues below. There is also a noticeable distrust towards the WOS and its overall intentions re the pyramid. its understandable but not healthy for the growth and development of our pyramid.

Sorry for 'hijacking' the Prem thread, didn't think it was worthy if its in thread as per my opening gambit.