WoSFL Premier Division thread

[An Absolute Imposter]

@glensmad agree with you, re Beith and the problems they have encountered. I know possil likes to use his big stirring stick.

Can't change the perception other leagues have about the West. The main comment I've heard this year has been about, the West still prioritising the SJC over everything else.

To be fair to the EOS, since the ex-juniors joined, they have managed to produce a licensed champion each season. 

The 'updating' of the licensing criteria and the suspension has not helped the west clubs its true.

Will the situation improve. It doesn't look positive moving on. What with the SPFL pulling the drawbridge further up, will the LL follow suit, which appears to be their gut response.

Would like to be more positive but is it getting to the point where all the cost and admin involved in obtaining a license is greater than the potential benefits.

As someone likes to say;

Time will tell.

[beithboy]

53 minutes ago, jimbaxters said:

So, are we allowed to say that Beith are just one win away from securing the league title or am I being wholly disrespectful to their remaining opponents?

you can say it if you want
 

but of course you are being disrespectful,  Scottish junior cup finalists and a team who have beat us the last twice we have played them.  Still hopeful though we have a chance to win the league, not getting complacent.  

[jimbaxters]

6 minutes ago, beithboy said:

you can say it if you want
 

but of course you are being disrespectful,  Scottish junior cup finalists and a team who have beat us the last twice we have played them.  Still hopeful though we have a chance to win the league, not getting complacent.  

I'm stating a fact. 

[Burnieman]

Top three in the WoS, EoS, SoS should be eligible for the play-off, the highest placed licenced club in each league (as at 31st March) taking part.

That would resolve issues such as Beith blocking the pathway from the WoS (although I appreciate it's not neccesarily their intention).

As has been pointed out, if Airdrie can potentially play their way into the Premiership after finishing 4th, then I don't see what the issue is with applying a similar scenario at tier 6.

 

[glensmad]

1 minute ago, Burnieman said:

Top three in the WoS, EoS, SoS should be eligible for the play-off, the highest placed licenced club in each league (as at 31st March) taking part.

That would resolve issues such as Beith blocking the pathway from the WoS (although I appreciate it's not neccesarily their intention).

As has been pointed out, if Airdrie can potentially play their way into the Premiership after finishing 4th, then I don't see what the issue is with applying a similar scenario at tier 6.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against the principle that the highest ranked licensed team should get the play-off place (although by the end of the season, not 31st March). I just think it would take more than a little bit of persuasion to get the other three leagues (who have had access to licnsing for a lot longer than the WoSFL) to buy into the concept, especially the Lowland League clubs.

[FairWeatherFan]

6 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

Top three in the WoS, EoS, SoS should be eligible for the play-off, the highest placed licenced club in each league (as at 31st March) taking part.

That would resolve issues such as Beith blocking the pathway from the WoS (although I appreciate it's not neccesarily their intention).

As has been pointed out, if Airdrie can potentially play their way into the Premiership after finishing 4th, then I don't see what the issue is with applying a similar scenario at tier 6.

 

Because 4th don't deny a champion the promotion opportunity.

I'm sure the EoS or WoS would be thrilled to hear the prospect of their champion losing out promotion to a 3rd placed team because they never ran up the score against an SoS team and the potential of relegating another 3-4 teams down the divisions for the privilege.

[Burnieman]

6 minutes ago, glensmad said:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against the principle that the highest ranked licensed team should get the play-off place (although by the end of the season, not 31st March). I just think it would take more than a little bit of persuasion to get the other three leagues (who have had access to licnsing for a lot longer than the WoSFL) to buy into the concept, especially the Lowland League clubs.

I don't disagree it may not be easy to get agreement, but if nobody tries then it definitely won't happen.

[Burnieman]

2 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Because 4th don't deny a champion the promotion opportunity.

I'm sure the EoS or WoS would be thrilled to hear the prospect of their champion losing out promotion to a 3rd placed team because they never ran up the score against an SoS team and the potential of relegating another 3-4 teams down the divisions for the privilege.

Does it really matter if you play the other two Champions in the play-off, or two third places? Not really. If you're good enough you'll win and go up.

I don't get your point re relegation or running up scores.

[An Absolute Imposter]

7 minutes ago, glensmad said:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against the principle that the highest ranked licensed team should get the play-off place (although by the end of the season, not 31st March). I just think it would take more than a little bit of persuasion to get the other three leagues (who have had access to licnsing for a lot longer than the WoSFL) to buy into the concept, especially the Lowland League clubs.

The East Juniors joined EOS in Season 2018-19, which Rose won and entered LL. And have had a licensed champion each season each season. 5 completed seasons.

First WOSFL season was 2020-21, yes season didn't finish but not a lot longer tbf. West gave had 1 licensed champ from 3 complete seasons. Not a criticism just an observation.

[Vanderbilt]

10 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Because 4th don't deny a champion the promotion opportunity.

I'm sure the EoS or WoS would be thrilled to hear the prospect of their champion losing out promotion to a 3rd placed team because they never ran up the score against an SoS team and the potential of relegating another 3-4 teams down the divisions for the privilege.

You can’t go through by running up a score in 1 game as there are no draws with penalties to make a winner in each game.

[beithboy]

25 minutes ago, jimbaxters said:

I'm stating a fact. 

You asked a question.  You did not state a fact. 

[FairWeatherFan]

17 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

Does it really matter if you play the other two Champions in the play-off, or two third places? Not really. If you're good enough you'll win and go up.

I don't get your point re relegation or running up scores.

It does matter, because it shouldn't be a case of 3 league champions chasing a single solitary promotion place.

That's the issue with the Lowland League Play-off. Yet people want to fiddle with the deck chairs on the Titanic instead. All because Beith look to win an back to back titles. Otherwise no one would have noticed.

And the point about relegation is pretty simple. 2nd in the West win promotion. Edinburgh University down. 13th in the EoS Premier relegated, 13th in the EoS First relegated, 13th in the EoS Second relegated.

So for the sake of one club that couldn't win their own league. Let's screw over two other champions and relegate 3 more clubs.

 

 

[Burnieman]

14 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

It does matter, because it shouldn't be a case of 3 league champions chasing a single solitary promotion place.

That's the issue with the Lowland League Play-off. Yet people want to fiddle with the deck chairs on the Titanic instead. All because Beith look to win an back to back titles. Otherwise no one would have noticed.

And the point about relegation is pretty simple. 2nd in the West win promotion. Edinburgh University down. 13th in the EoS Premier relegated, 13th in the EoS First relegated, 13th in the EoS Second relegated.

So for the sake of one club that couldn't win their own league. Let's screw over two other champions and relegate 3 more clubs.

That's a different matter and one which isn't going to change anytime soon, so perhaps be pragmatic about it and make the best of what is currently on offer to increase promotion opportunities for licenced clubs.

Re relegation, I'm not sure what the issue is with that scenario. If the WoS Champion, second, or third win the play-off makes absolutely no difference.

You place too much emphasis on Champions only being promoted.

Edited May 2 by Burnieman

[FairWeatherFan]

9 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

That's a different matter and one which isn't going to change anytime soon, so perhaps be pragmatic about it and make the best of what is currently on offer to increase promotion opportunities for licenced clubs.

Re relegation, I'm not sure what the issue is with that scenario. If the WoS Champion, second, or third win the play-off makes absolutely no difference.

You place too much emphasis on Champions only being promoted.

In order to change the participant criteria on the LL Playoff. You have to change the Playoff Rules. If you don't think that's changing anytime soon. Why propose minor changes instead of meaningful ones?

Things wrong with the LL Playoff this season:

1. A licensed league champion being denied promotion
2. 13th in the EoS Premier waiting around to see if they're relegated
3. 13th in the EoS First waiting around to see if they're relegated
4. 13th in the EoS Second waiting around to see if they're relegated

Things not wrong with the LL Playoff this season

1. A second or even third placed team not good enough to win their league being denied participation in 2 games. Games that would decide the entire seasons of a half dozen clubs.

[Burnieman]

9 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

In order to change the participant criteria on the LL Playoff. You have to change the Playoff Rules. If you don't think that's changing anytime soon. Why propose minor changes instead of meaningful ones?

Things wrong with the LL Playoff this season:

1. A licensed league champion being denied promotion
2. 13th in the EoS Premier waiting around to see if they're relegated
3. 13th in the EoS First waiting around to see if they're relegated
4. 13th in the EoS Second waiting around to see if they're relegated

Things not wrong with the LL Playoff this season

1. A second or even third placed team not good enough to win their league being denied participation in 2 games. Games that would decide the entire seasons of a half dozen clubs.

As I said, it's called being pragmatic and making the best of what you have.

The LL are unlikely to change the relegation rules until the SPFL change theirs, hence impass.  Will it change because tier 6 want it to? probably not until the balance in LL membership tips more towards former Junior clubs.

In the meantime, the LL probably don't care that much about how tier 6 find a club to be promoted, so that at least can be addressed to try and ensure that three clubs take part in the play-off every year.  The WoS is now a damp squib, it may well have been a little more interesting if second place offered a chance in the play-off.

You don't like that idea, fair enough, but others do and helps move the Pyramid forward just a little more.

Edited May 2 by Burnieman

[Burnieman]

We could have a situation next season where St.Cadocs, Whitburn and Creetown are the three Champions.   

Creetown automatically promoted as the other two unlicenced. Good for the Pyramid?

[KirkyRobRoy]

Lot of what if's on this thread

To cut through the nonsense, its a clear and undeniable fact that the intention of the playoff system was that there would be clubs from the west, east and south in the playoff, there shouldnt be a situation where ANY clubs get an easier ride because of "paperwork"

The whole point f the pyramid is progression upwards and downwards and if that doesnt happen for whatever reason, the pyramid fails

In my opinion it should be a matter that each league gets to nominate a club to represent their league in the playoff, obviously in the vast majority of cases that will be the league champions, but should they not wish to, or be unable to go up if they won, the league should have the option/ability to nominate another club from their league to take part

Simples

[glensmad]

1 minute ago, KirkyRobRoy said:

Lot of what if's on this thread

To cut through the nonsense, its a clear and undeniable fact that the intention of the playoff system was that there would be clubs from the west, east and south in the playoff, there shouldnt be a situation where ANY clubs get an easier ride because of "paperwork"

The whole point f the pyramid is progression upwards and downwards and if that doesnt happen for whatever reason, the pyramid fails

In my opinion it should be a matter that each league gets to nominate a club to represent their league in the playoff, obviously in the vast majority of cases that will be the league champions, but should they not wish to, or be unable to go up if they won, the league should have the option/ability to nominate another club from their league to take part

Simples

I'm not disagreeing with you, but you would need the agreement of all four leagues, and the Scottish FA, to change the wording of the 4-way agreement. It's not a case of the WoSFL Board just deciding that's what we're going to do. And each individual league would have to have a mandate from their member clubs to agree to that change.

[KirkyRobRoy]

3 minutes ago, glensmad said:

I'm not disagreeing with you, but you would need the agreement of all four leagues, and the Scottish FA, to change the wording of the 4-way agreement. It's not a case of the WoSFL Board just deciding that's what we're going to do. And each individual league would have to have a mandate from their member clubs to agree to that change.

I dont think that can/will happen though, self preservation is how the leagues got into this mess, and even the SFA would have reasons to block (perhaps even more so) this route

Afraid the only way i can see through it is independent arbitration through the courts if required

 

[Arthurlie1981]

You would hope that this is only a short term problem as more clubs get licensed as we move forward. The biggest concern is that Vanderbilt's possibility could happen as soon as next season if Burgh (unless they are commencing the building work at Kennie soon) come up and if St Cadocs throw more money at winning the league (unless they plan on getting licensed using New Tinto which imo would be wrong)