New clubs in the West of Scotland

[Brad Bobley]

18 hours ago, Burnieman said:

Let's just deal with "what's the alternative".   Does there need to be an alternative?  prospective clubs carry on as they are, which may already be in amateur football, or it may be in youth football.  It may also be youth football morphing into amateur if they want their oldest team to keep going beyond U19/20/21.

If these clubs harbour any ambitions on joining the Pyramid then they take steps towards meeting the requirements, and then apply.

That equally applies to a brand new club which doesn't currently exist (although I doubt there will be many).

There is no need to force them down a particular path, wait an indeterminate amount of time for a vacancy, and even then still have to apply with no guarantee of success. It all seems such a pointless exercise.

Open the WoSFL to more than 80 clubs is the answer, if you're looking for an alternative.

I would've thought there does need to be an alternative. A team who apply might wait years to be accepted. What are they expected to do then? Just sit and wait without playing? Amateur provides an opportunity to keep the same team together and continue playing whilst waiting for the opportunity to open up for them to join the WoS. Youth teams with aspirations to join the WoS will naturally become amateur anyway (as alluded to in the 19s/21s point previously), so I don't quite understand what the issue is with them being affiliated with the SAFA, mainly to keep playing, develop facilities and work toward meeting the required criteria.

I agree with you in that opening the WoS up is probably a more productive, long-term solution, but that's not going to happen any time soon.

 

11 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

 

Pretty sure St Pat's are one that still have an interest after missing out last year.

St Pat's have recently been accepted into the Caledonian League. I'm aware that might only be temporary with their aspirations, but I don't think they'll apply for the WoS this year. 

Not sure if there's a list of teams who will apply, depending on what happens with St Peter's.

16 hours ago, Spyro said:

The amateur leagues in the WoS area should be split into regions. Ayrshire, East and West, draw a line roughly up the Clyde to Rutherglen and go straight up. 

Then have some sort of playoff to decide the overall champion.

Anyone that wants to play Region wide (and commit to travelling all season!), should have an option to join the WoS at any point if they meet requirements and not just "promise" to meet requirements 

A friend of mine drew up a proposal to send to the SAFA. Don't know if he ever got round to it, but here's a screenshot with a rough idea of what he was suggesting (notably only afternoon teams because of the nature of the WoS being afternoons):

 

That would definitely need some tweaking, but don't think it's miles away. Naturally, a structure like that would easily funnel into the WoS/EoS.

 

[Burnieman]

5 hours ago, Brad Bobley said:

I would've thought there does need to be an alternative. A team who apply might wait years to be accepted. What are they expected to do then? Just sit and wait without playing?

A club can play wherever they like, what shouldn't happen is they are obligated to join the SAFA before being eligible to apply to the WoSFL.

[Brad Bobley]

10 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

A club can play wherever they like, what shouldn't happen is they are obligated to join the SAFA before being eligible to apply to the WoSFL.

I understand your point with being 'obligated', but they really don't have any other choice if they want to continue playing. The only circumstance, I can think of, where SAFA obligation might become a problem is when an 18s team wants to go straight to the WoS, which is never, ever going to happen, for a plethora of reasons. 

[Burnieman]

47 minutes ago, Brad Bobley said:

I understand your point with being 'obligated', but they really don't have any other choice if they want to continue playing. The only circumstance, I can think of, where SAFA obligation might become a problem is when an 18s team wants to go straight to the WoS, which is never, ever going to happen, for a plethora of reasons. 

Community Youth Clubs will continue to play in youth football, they don't need to go anywhere. Clubs that are already amateur don't need to go anywhere.  Clubs that perhaps don't even exist don't need to go anywhere.

The only issue that needed addressing in the west, and still needs addressing, is the closed door to accessing the league.

 

[FairWeatherFan]

I have problems with this, but surprisingly enough its not this one.

Pretty much every Tier 6 pyramid league has a barrier to entry. Both the WoSFL & EoSFL you need to be accredited  by the SFA Quality Mark Scheme. Can't really be an out the blue application going "why not apply?" and magically have that.

Rising standards over the grounds are creeping in. Caged astros and types of groundshares being ruled out. Since most modern facilties aren't being built with spectators in mind and that's where newer clubs are coming from don't see how that changes.

I haven't seen anyone particularly thrilled with the approach taken by the agreement. It's the start of a discussion that probably needs to take place with how the pyramid (adult & development leagues) have impacted things and the amateur game splitting into ever decreasing circles (saturday afternoon/morning/sunday/over 35s)

[Arthurlie1981]

3 hours ago, Burnieman said:

Community Youth Clubs will continue to play in youth football, they don't need to go anywhere. Clubs that are already amateur don't need to go anywhere.  Clubs that perhaps don't even exist don't need to go anywhere.

The only issue that needed addressing in the west, and still needs addressing, is the closed door to accessing the league.

 

While I am onboard with your last point there, I do think it is good thing about having the club come from SAFA ranks but for different reasons that are raised on here if you are going to have a cap.

I think we need to make sure that any club coming in is sustainable. We have already seen a club in the West become a franchise and move and change their name last season due to the committee deciding they wanted to concentrate on Youth Football. Several of the new entrants still dont have their own grounds and are sharing outwith the town they are from (not going to go on my rant about this again I promise). 

I am all for having as many clubs come in as possible but I think it would be beneficial for them to show their commitment to having adult football by joining the SAFA and preparing for the WOSFL when a place(s) are available.

[Brad Bobley]

4 hours ago, Burnieman said:

Community Youth Clubs will continue to play in youth football, they don't need to go anywhere. Clubs that are already amateur don't need to go anywhere.  Clubs that perhaps don't even exist don't need to go anywhere.

The only issue that needed addressing in the west, and still needs addressing, is the closed door to accessing the league.

 

I really hate to keep labouring this point, however…

Community Youth Clubs NEED to have somewhere to go while they wait on an opportunity to join the WoS. Naturally, they will join the SAFA which makes perfect sense. Flippantly, clubs that don’t exist do need to go somewhere. They need to be registered to something (if above 19s, then it needs to be an SAFA affiliation), or else is there any point in existing?

Again, I agree with your final point, but to gain the necessary accreditation, amateur affiliation, regardless of anyone’s opinion of the setup, makes perfectly logical sense, in the interim at least.

[FairWeatherFan]

39 minutes ago, Brad Bobley said:

I really hate to keep labouring this point, however…

Community Youth Clubs NEED to have somewhere to go while they wait on an opportunity to join the WoS. Naturally, they will join the SAFA which makes perfect sense. Flippantly, clubs that don’t exist do need to go somewhere. They need to be registered to something (if above 19s, then it needs to be an SAFA affiliation), or else is there any point in existing?

Again, I agree with your final point, but to gain the necessary accreditation, amateur affiliation, regardless of anyone’s opinion of the setup, makes perfectly logical sense, in the interim at least.

A lot of the youth clubs would have typically started an amateur team if they wanted to do so. Which is why I don't see a problem with it.

If somebody wants to deal with the specific issue of a youth club not having to go amateurs, I do think there's a solution that exists. The Development Leagues. There have been plenty of youth teams that have taken on the name of an adult team through "player pathways" or more formal mergers. Even situations like the Upper or Mid-Annandale team that was really a team from the Glasgow area. We know these don't really pan out when it comes to progression to the 1st team on a large scale. Yet there's still been an interest from the youth clubs to become part of the set-up.

 

 

[Burnieman]

1 hour ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

While I am onboard with your last point there, I do think it is good thing about having the club come from SAFA ranks but for different reasons that are raised on here if you are going to have a cap.

I think we need to make sure that any club coming in is sustainable. We have already seen a club in the West become a franchise and move and change their name last season due to the committee deciding they wanted to concentrate on Youth Football. Several of the new entrants still dont have their own grounds and are sharing outwith the town they are from (not going to go on my rant about this again I promise). 

I am all for having as many clubs come in as possible but I think it would be beneficial for them to show their commitment to having adult football by joining the SAFA and preparing for the WOSFL when a place(s) are available.

I'm not sure that being forced to go through SAFA proves anything to be honest, amateurs is literally a whole different ball game.   The points you raised can be addressed by more stringent processes such as no ground sharing and proper facilities.

[Burnieman]

1 hour ago, Brad Bobley said:

I really hate to keep labouring this point, however…

Community Youth Clubs NEED to have somewhere to go while they wait on an opportunity to join the WoS. Naturally, they will join the SAFA which makes perfect sense. Flippantly, clubs that don’t exist do need to go somewhere. They need to be registered to something (if above 19s, then it needs to be an SAFA affiliation), or else is there any point in existing?

Again, I agree with your final point, but to gain the necessary accreditation, amateur affiliation, regardless of anyone’s opinion of the setup, makes perfectly logical sense, in the interim at least.

There's many Community Clubs who exist quite happily without an adult team, they don't need anywhere to go.   Some may choose to field an amateur side of course, but they shouldn't be obligated to in order to apply at some unspecified point in the future.

Clubs can meet all the requirements of the WoSFL facilities wise without the need to have an adult team until they actually apply.

[Burnieman]

3 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Pretty much every Tier 6 pyramid league has a barrier to entry. Both the WoSFL & EoSFL you need to be accredited  by the SFA Quality Mark Scheme. Can't really be an out the blue application going "why not apply?" and magically have that.

 

That's why I said it's pretty unlikely.   Any new club would probably look to start in the amateurs anyway to find their feet.

Anyway, the WoSFL have made their decision whilst maintaining a closed door policy until someone leaves.  Let's see how that all pans out.

[Shannon]

Compared to B teams in Lowland League and lack of promotion places to Lowland League with them refusing to adopt East & West of Scotland Leagues 3 up and 3 down model or even at least 2 up this is such a minor irrelevance I feel.

80 clubs is a huge number of clubs for just a handful of volunteers to do admin for and arrange fixtures for etc. The workload is one of the reasons can't have another influx of 16 plus clubs.

Once East of Scotland League reaches magic 80 will there be the same debate once they say thats enough clubs thank you?

Edited March 15 by Shannon

[Shannon]

If you speak to supporters and ask them what they think St Cadocs, Drumchapel, West Park United, Rossvale, BSC Glasgow etc have brought to the league you wont get many positives unfortunately.

The recent change of names for original Rossvale to Caledonian Locomotives and even likes of St Peters refusing to travel to Campbelltown then management resigning is in my opinion amateurish while St Cadocs having no likely home of their own but spending a small fortune on their team doesn't sit well with a lot of supporters of other clubs and you have to see their point.

However I do think Threave Rovers are a good addition to the league with their own ground and very good facilities going by reports & photos I have seen plus I hope Campbelltown can pick up in next few seasons.

Edited March 15 by Shannon

[Shannon]

Just checked East of Scotland League website and they have 21 clubs less than West of Scotland. 22 clubs if count Rosyth who have just folded. West of Scotland Football League could say we won't go above 80 until East of Scotland get to 80 so the pyramid doesn't get too lopsided?

[Ray Patterson]

I think, in principle, this is a good idea, it's the first step to formalising the bottom end of the pyramid.

Optional Promotion and Relegation should become the norm from the bottom of the respective "Semi-Pro/Regional Leagues" - I know it's not a blanket level in the pyramid but it's as close to that as we'll get with our terrible geography.

Allowing the Amateur FA to call it's respective leagues as Tier 11 in the West, Tier 10 in the East, Tier 8 in the North or Tier 7 in the Midlands is a sensible proposition.

Formalising promotion and relegation based off basic standards (access to an enclosed ground, Quality Mark approval) would be the next step. I think it's really important to allow a clear pathway for all clubs to rise through the ranks from the Premiership to Strathclyde Amateur League Division 1B. 

[Brad Bobley]

11 hours ago, Burnieman said:

There's many Community Clubs who exist quite happily without an adult team, they don't need anywhere to go.   Some may choose to field an amateur side of course, but they shouldn't be obligated to in order to apply at some unspecified point in the future.

Clubs can meet all the requirements of the WoSFL facilities wise without the need to have an adult team until they actually apply.

For sure, and I don't have an issue with this. But the clubs need to have a pathway into playing football beyond 18s, which the SAFA now offers. 

When they apply, and require to have an adult team, and don't get accepted, the SAFA pathway makes sense, no?

We always talk about player pathways through WoSDL and there isn't really a focus on club pathways. I think this move is a step in the right direction towards that end. Youth team becomes too old > joins SAFA to build foundations to > join WoS. In instances where youth teams want to go straight from 18s to WoS - I really can't see it happening. Teams going from 19s and 21s straight to amateur get eaten alive, so will only be magnified exponentially going straight into the WoS, albeit they would have more room for recruitment and lack of restrictions with ages.

I feel like we're going round in circles, so I'll leave it at that!

[Shannon]

I see the only 2 teams to apparently apply to East of Scotland League is Livingston Reserves and Gala Fairydean Rovers reserves. Maybe the East of Scotland League should be trying to make the application process for them easier and the league more attractive .

If West has 80 clubs the East should match up so it is a balanced pyramid before West accept more new teams? Seriously I do think bottom 2 divisions could increase to 18 teams as less likely to go to later stages of cups if Newmains and a couple of others can sort their pitch issues out. If a good candidate like Annbank with a more than suitable facility then happy to see them back but less so if another caged 4g ground.

[Spyro]

1 hour ago, Shannon said:

I see the only 2 teams to apparently apply to East of Scotland League is Livingston Reserves and Gala Fairydean Rovers reserves. Maybe the East of Scotland League should be trying to make the application process for them easier and the league more attractive .

If West has 80 clubs the East should match up so it is a balanced pyramid before West accept more new teams? Seriously I do think bottom 2 divisions could increase to 18 teams as less likely to go to later stages of cups if Newmains and a couple of others can sort their pitch issues out. If a good candidate like Annbank with a more than suitable facility then happy to see them back but less so if another caged 4g ground.

The East should still have the Dundee teams under it imo. 

That's 20 more teams that would be in the EoS

[Sergeant Wilson]

1 hour ago, Shannon said:

I see the only 2 teams to apparently apply to East of Scotland League is Livingston Reserves and Gala Fairydean Rovers reserves. Maybe the East of Scotland League should be trying to make the application process for them easier and the league more attractive .

If West has 80 clubs the East should match up so it is a balanced pyramid before West accept more new teams? Seriously I do think bottom 2 divisions could increase to 18 teams as less likely to go to later stages of cups if Newmains and a couple of others can sort their pitch issues out. If a good candidate like Annbank with a more than suitable facility then happy to see them back but less so if another caged 4g ground.

Why do they need to have even numbers in each region? If the East went up to 80, where would the teams come from?

[Johnstonian]

1 hour ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

Why do they need to have even numbers in each region? If the East went up to 80, where would the teams come from?

Shotts Bon Accord?