New clubs in the West of Scotland

[andy25]

3 hours ago, PossilYM said:

 

Nor me 

Far too many bigots on here for my liking.

The only bigot on here is you.

[Urban Spaceman]

29 minutes ago, andy25 said:

The only bigot on here is you.

he does seem to be the only going on about it...and promoting conspiracy theories without any evidence.

Another more likely theory is that based on history they would be genuine challengers straight away, hence the lack of support. 

 

Although anyone that follows St Pats on social media will know they do have a image problem as a good chuck of traffic and comments are big team obsessed.

even yesterdays statement prompted replies about "bhoys" and "not walking away" all pretty petty from supporters that represent a team from Dumbarton and takes players that are not FPs.

 https://www.facebook.com/search/top?q=saint patrick’s fp afc 

Really disappointed they didnt get in and hope they apply again with a watertight application next year.

 

[glensmad]

14 minutes ago, Urban Spaceman said:

he does seem to be the only going on about it...and promoting conspiracy theories without any evidence.

Donald Trump-ish.

[Arthurlie1981]

One possible solution is for the West to ask for clubs who would be interested in joining the league within the next 5 years. This would give them an opportunity to see how many clubs are interested and if expansion is workable and give these clubs 5 years to get their houses in order with things like grounds and facilities etc with the view of entering 5 years down the line (similar to expansions in American sports) but there does need to be cut off point.

Edited June 15, 2023 by Arthurlie1981

[Arthurlie1981]

19 hours ago, craigkillie said:

There needs to be something in place, because otherwise we're basically back in the same situation that the likes of Clydebank, Auchinleck and Kilwinning found themselves in 4 or 5 years ago which led to the formation of this league in the first place. The only way a team can get licensed (or play in any senior competition) is to be part of the pyramid, but if there is no pyramid league in their area which will accept them then they're basically stuck applying to a league outside their own area (eg the South of Scotland League) or just waiting around until something changes.

That a simplistic way to look at it as that was not the only reason. There was a massive chunk of the country not covered by the pyramid and it had been worked on for years (and hindered by certain parties too) to get the west of Scotland covered. There was also some general unrest (for some clubs at least) at how the SJFA had handles things. Remember Bankies were off to the EOS if this hadn't come together but once Bankies signalled their intention to move I know a number of clubs (including my own) looked at their own options.

Any pyramid needs a bottom level but also we should find a way to get all clubs in who want to come in. I wonder how England do it at the bottom tier of the pyramid. Do they have clubs applying every year or do they have a closed shop unless the work?

[lowenan]

Clubs can join at any time at the bottom of the pyramid, both in England and Norway.

[Arthurlie1981]

9 minutes ago, lowenan said:

Clubs can join at any time at the bottom of the pyramid, both in England and Norway.

Thanks for the info

[LongTimeLurker]

On 15/06/2023 at 16:30, lowenan said:

Clubs can join at any time at the bottom of the pyramid, both in England and Norway.

Questionable assertion where England is concerned. The national league system run by the FA there actually only goes down to the 10th tier and is capped in numbers terms:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_League_System

There are plenty of local feeder leagues beneath that but those are arguably similar to our amateur grade which new clubs can easily join. Promotion into the national league system from those feeder leagues only happens if clubs apply for it in advance, finish high enough in their league (top three, I think?), and have the appropriate ground grading. I have no strong opinion on what the WoS should do moving forward, but there clearly does need to be a way for clubs to enter from below one way or another. What happens now, for example, if Annbank United want back in?

 

[lowenan]

The National League System is not the bottom of the pyramid in England. Just look at a club like Maidstone that had to restart at the bottom of non league. Once they got to that level (FA Vase top level), there was no problem advancing further. Clubs get relegated and promoted between those levels every year.
 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_football_league_system#The_system

 

 

[Dev]

22 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Questionable assertion where England is concerned. The national league system run by the FA there actually only goes down to the 10th tier and is capped in numbers terms:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_League_System

There are plenty of local feeder leagues beneath that but those are arguably similar to our amateur grade which new clubs can easily join. Promotion into the national league system from those feeder leagues only happens if clubs apply for it in advance, finish high enough in their league (top three, I think?), and have the appropriate ground grading. I have no strong opinion on what the WoS should do moving forward, but there clearly does need to be a way for clubs to enter from below one way or another. What happens now, for example, if Annbank United want back in?

 

That's about it, I believe, except that it is a top 5 position rather than top 3. Although sometimes a club seems to be able to bypass the rules for entry if there's enough room for an extra club to be received. Also space can be made for clubs which are being reformed after going bust or similar. There's also a system of relegations at the bottom of the pyramid.

I understand that the bottom of the NLS is the official bottom of the pyramid. That pyramid being fed by lots of lower leagues although not all lower leagues promote clubs e.g. the Amateur Football Alliance  based around London.

Edited June 16, 2023 by Dev
.

[GNU_Linux]

31 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Questionable assertion where England is concerned. The national league system run by the FA there actually only goes down to the 10th tier and is capped in numbers terms:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_League_System

There are plenty of local feeder leagues beneath that but those are arguably similar to our amateur grade which new clubs can easily join. Promotion into the national league system from those feeder leagues only happens if clubs apply for it in advance, finish high enough in their league (top three, I think?), and have the appropriate ground grading. I have no strong opinion on what the WoS should do moving forward, but there clearly does need to be a way for clubs to enter from below one way or another. What happens now, for example, if Annbank United want back in?

 

Top 5 iirc. Also worth noting that if not enough teams apply for a tier 10 league then a team who would've been relegated from that league get a reprieve. There are also Saturday PM leagues that aren't part of the pyramid notably the non-geographic Arthurian league. The Westmoreland League & Cumberland County League are examples of geographic leagues not in the pyramid hence technically the county of Cumbria doesn't have any leagues within the pyramid.

Edited June 16, 2023 by GNU_Linux

[lowenan]

For the 2024–25 season, every level 8 division will expand to 22 clubs and it is intended that the number of relegations from that division will increase to four.

Level 9 contains the top divisions of a large group of 16 sub-regional leagues. Each of these leagues has a different divisional setup, but they all have one thing in common: there are yet more leagues below them, each covering smaller and smaller geographical levels.

[LongTimeLurker]

1 hour ago, lowenan said:

The National League System is not the bottom of the pyramid in England. Just look at a club like Maidstone that had to restart at the bottom of non league. Once they got to that level (FA Vase top level), there was no problem advancing further. Clubs get relegated and promoted between those levels every year.
 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_football_league_system#The_system

Phoenix clubs like Maidstone, or more recently Bury, are usually allowed in again at the bottom of the national league system around the tenth tier rather than at "the bottom of nonleague" where they would be playing against glorified pub teams on unenclosed pitches. The English equivalent of Dumbarton St Pats don't automatically get into that level especially if they don't have a suitable ground sorted out.

The WoS have allowed something like an extra division's worth of clubs to enter relative to what was going on with the west region juniors in only a few short seasons so I don't think anyone can sensibly criticise them for wanting to take a wee bit of a breather on that at least for now until they figure out how to handle this issue.

From what is being posted in another thread having 16 clubs already means two midweek games next season involving Campbeltown Pupils. Adding a 17th club to the fourth division would have needed another month's worth of Saturdays to fit in the extra league fixtures once the bye weeks are factored in.

Edited June 16, 2023 by LongTimeLurker

[parsforlife]

I’m not necessarily arguing to do things ‘the English way’ as I think we can be a bit lazy and just try and copy them,  

But their solution here would be having official link-ups with the amateur leagues, having maximum number of clubs at a particular level is fine but it can’t mean no more applications, It should just mean the if an application meets the criteria then someone gets relegated to an amateur league, which they are perfectly entitled to try and succeed in and apply themselves the next season.

Problem without those links then it’s not relegation it’s kicking teams out which is a far bigger thing.   
 

Doesn’t help the WoS amateur leagues are an absolute farce of clubs just randomly clumped into leagues rather than the sensible regional organisation where clubs and move up and down divisions that the rest of the country has easily arranged 

[lowenan]

24 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Phoenix clubs like Maidstone, or more recently Bury, are usually allowed in again at the bottom of the national league system around the tenth tier rather than at "the bottom of nonleague" where they would be playing against glorified pub teams on unenclosed pitches. The English equivalent of Dumbarton St Pats don't automatically get into that level especially if they don't have a suitable ground sorted out.

The WoS have allowed something like an extra division's worth of clubs to enter relative to what was going on with the west region juniors in only a few short seasons so I don't think anyone can sensibly criticise them for wanting to take a wee bit of a breather on that at least for now until they figure out how to handle this issue.

From what is being posted in another thread having 16 clubs already means two midweek games next season involving Campbeltown Pupils. Adding a 17th club to the fourth division would have needed another month's worth of Saturdays to fit in the extra league fixtures once the bye weeks are factored in.

Maidstone restarted on tier 14, the very bottom of the pyramid at the time.

[Honestman1954]

1 hour ago, lowenan said:

For the 2024–25 season, every level 8 division will expand to 22 clubs and it is intended that the number of relegations from that division will increase to four.

Level 9 contains the top divisions of a large group of 16 sub-regional leagues. Each of these leagues has a different divisional setup, but they all have one thing in common: there are yet more leagues below them, each covering smaller and smaller geographical levels.

Where did you get that info from?

[jimbaxters]

2 hours ago, lowenan said:

For the 2024–25 season, every level 8 division will expand to 22 clubs and it is intended that the number of relegations from that division will increase to four.

Level 9 contains the top divisions of a large group of 16 sub-regional leagues. Each of these leagues has a different divisional setup, but they all have one thing in common: there are yet more leagues below them, each covering smaller and smaller geographical levels.

Is this the English pyramid you're talking about?

[santheman]

1 hour ago, parsforlife said:

I’m not necessarily arguing to do things ‘the English way’ as I think we can be a bit lazy and just try and copy them,  

But their solution here would be having official link-ups with the amateur leagues, having maximum number of clubs at a particular level is fine but it can’t mean no more applications, It should just mean the if an application meets the criteria then someone gets relegated to an amateur league, which they are perfectly entitled to try and succeed in and apply themselves the next season.

Problem without those links then it’s not relegation it’s kicking teams out which is a far bigger thing.   
 

Doesn’t help the WoS amateur leagues are an absolute farce of clubs just randomly clumped into leagues rather than the sensible regional organisation where clubs and move up and down divisions that the rest of the country has easily arranged 

Go and look on the Lesmahagow Amateurs Facebook page to see just how farcical the so called top Amateur League in the West of Scotland has turned out this season.

 

Edited June 16, 2023 by santheman

[lowenan]

25 minutes ago, jimbaxters said:

Is this the English pyramid you're talking about?

Yes

[lowenan]

36 minutes ago, Honestman1954 said:

Where did you get that info from?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_football_league_system#The_system