The 2021 election and a mandate for Indyref2.

[Gordon EF]

It'll come in handy when my work's bribed into relocating to Scunthorpe.

[lichtgilphead]

Just now, The_Kincardine said:

If NedGov don't issue passports in tartan batters - Royal Stuart for the hoi polloi and Blackwatch for the Unionists - I will be sorely disappointed.

Maroon is the correct colour for important documents (like my season ticket)

[HTG]

This patter's absolutely fuckin howlin. Just so needy.

[The_Kincardine]

1 minute ago, lichtgilphead said:

Maroon is the correct colour for important documents (like my season ticket)

And marooned outside of rUK and outside of the EU?  Seems fitting...

[lichtgilphead]

3 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

And marooned outside of rUK and outside of the EU?  Seems fitting...

Or bloo-tered in the insular rUK...

[Blootoon87]

Don't want to answer my question Kincy?

[D.A.F.C]

I’m voting snp and hoping that they put forward the case for independence and a referendum but I can’t see the uk government allowing it.

How does it work exactly, I’m not sure we need years of hassle after covid but willing to sacrifice finances and have austerity if an independent Scotland will work for future generations. Covid has made me think that the snp are all style and no substance. TBH devo max would do me for a few years until things recover. I’m not anti Scottish or independence, just being pragmatic.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Jesus wept.

He's started early tonight

[jakedee]

1. To untie New Nedland from the UK will take a decade - at least.  The amount of effort involved in rewriting all of the systems and processes needed for a new country is impossible to achieve in a 3 year timescale.
As a simple illustration, in 2018 NedGov wanted to take control of certain payments to disabled people and said they could do so in 2 years at a cost of £200 million.  The latest estimate is that said system MAY be available in 2024 at a cost of £650 million.  This probably represents less than 0.5% of all of the government processes and if you can't even get that right then what hope is there for everything else?
Using that as a benchmark, a decade's span to untangle  Neo Jockland from the rest is modest and the bill will be in the tens of billions - which you can't afford.
2. You can't run the the process of untangling from the UK in parallel with trying to accede to the EU for two reasons.  A.  You don't have the bandwidth/expertise/personnel to do so and, more importantly, B The EU will tell you to GTF and come back when you're an independent country - in about a decade.  You'd then go through the normal accession process which will take about a decade.
So 20 years is a fairly modest estimate for an independent Caledonian Transnistria to be a member of the EU.

Fek it, it's going to be difficult, that's changed my mind.

[DavidWatt26]

16 minutes ago, D.A.F.C said:

I’m voting snp and hoping that they put forward the case for independence and a referendum but I can’t see the uk government allowing it.

How does it work exactly, I’m not sure we need years of hassle after covid but willing to sacrifice finances and have austerity if an independent Scotland will work for future generations. Covid has made me think that the snp are all style and no substance. TBH devo max would do me for a few years until things recover. I’m not anti Scottish or independence, just being pragmatic.

 

[jakedee]

I’m voting snp and hoping that they put forward the case for independence and a referendum but I can’t see the uk government allowing it.
How does it work exactly, I’m not sure we need years of hassle after covid but willing to sacrifice finances and have austerity if an independent Scotland will work for future generations. Covid has made me think that the snp are all style and no substance. TBH devo max would do me for a few years until things recover. I’m not anti Scottish or independence, just being pragmatic.

You mean the (as close to as possible) devo max that was promised in 2014?
Never going to happen.

[D.A.F.C]

Just now, jakedee said:

You mean the (as close to as possible) devo max that was promised in 2014?
Never going to happen.

I think it could be an alternative. Like a ten year deal then independence. I’d like to see another political party come forward with another plan.

There will be years of hassle and turmoil if we vote for independence.  Not saying it won’t be worth it but let’s not pretend that won’t happen.

This will resort in some financial problems and market fluctuations. After one of the biggest recessions of all time.

I really do want independence but at this point in time it’s very risky, I’m willing to look beyond myself and that it could work out for future generations. Another five to ten years of instability isn’t something I’m looking forward to though. That’s why I think devo max would be better as long as there was a deal of a referendum at the end of it.

[jakedee]

I think it could be an alternative. Like a ten year deal then independence. I’d like to see another political party come forward with another plan.
There will be years of hassle and turmoil if we vote for independence.  Not saying it won’t be worth it but let’s not pretend that won’t happen.
This will resort in some financial problems and market fluctuations. After one of the biggest recessions of all time.
I really do want independence but at this point in time it’s very risky, I’m willing to look beyond myself and that it could work out for future generations. Another five to ten years of instability isn’t something I’m looking forward to though. That’s why I think devo max would be better as long as there was a deal of a referendum at the end of it.

It could be an alternative, but there is no appetite for it with the Unionist party's, as was proved in 2014, it's something promised, then quickly forgotten,when the vote is delivered in their favour.
There is certainly no appetite for it within the independence movement.
There will be years of hassle and turmoil within the UK with brexit and post Covid.

[The_Kincardine]

15 hours ago, Blootoon87 said:

21 hours ago, The_Kincardine said:

Two points.
 

Should certain remain areas, say Scotland for example, have had an opt out option in the EU referendum? Or is that only an option when it's for THE GLORY OF THE UNION?!

That's an untenable notion.  The EU is all about nation states joining together for mutual trade and self-interest  It certainly isn't a place for disaffected parts of the UK to join.  They simply have nothing to offer.

I am, of course, a big advocate of the EU and, with three children having dual passports and nationalities, am probably the most EU-friendly poster on these threads..  I am, though, a realist and see the trading bloc for what it is.

I am also sceptical about Natterism's new-found love-in for the EU.  I'm old enough to remember, though not to vote in, the EEC referendum of 1975 when Billy Wolfe, Big Margo and Winnie were running about telling folk that supporting the EEC was not in Scotland's interests and, back then, Scotland was much more sceptical about European integration than England.

Natterism is a movement of the chancer, the aggrieved and the political fly by night.  Right now it's using some EU grievance to justify partitioning our nation state but we sensible people see them for what they are.

[D.A.F.C]

4 minutes ago, jakedee said:

It could be an alternative, but there is no appetite for it with the Unionist party's, as was proved in 2014, it's something promised, then quickly forgotten,when the vote is delivered in their favour.
There is certainly no appetite for it within the independence movement.
There will be years of hassle and turmoil within the UK with brexit and post Covid.

You’re not wrong, I’m really disillusioned with politics. I’d like to see real good quality leadership from the snp and a clear out with someone else getting to rival sturgeon. Blackford and others to replace the clownshoe mps in Edinburgh perhaps.

[The_Kincardine]

1 hour ago, Blootoon87 said:

Don't want to answer my question Kincy?

I just did...

[Blootoon87]

That's an untenable notion.  The EU is all about nation states joining together for mutual trade and self-interest  It certainly isn't a place for disaffected parts of the UK to join.  They simply have nothing to offer.
I am, of course, a big advocate of the EU and, with three children having dual passports and nationalities, am probably the most EU-friendly poster on these threads..  I am, though, a realist and see the trading bloc for what it is.
I am also sceptical about Natterism's new-found love-in for the EU.  I'm old enough to remember, though not to vote in, the EEC referendum of 1975 when Billy Wolfe, Big Margo and Winnie were running about telling folk that supporting the EEC was not in Scotland's interests and, back then, Scotland was much more sceptical about European integration than England.
Natterism is a movement of the chancer, the aggrieved and the political fly by night.  Right now it's using some EU grievance to justify partitioning our nation state but we sensible people see them for what they are.

And the UK is a place for disaffected parts of Scotland to join?
I mean, the Tories aren't exactly known for their philanthropy.

[The_Kincardine]

5 minutes ago, Blootoon87 said:

And the UK is a place for disaffected parts of Scotland to join?

 

Well we've been one nation state for over 300 years but I would grant the disaffected Scotch their own wee rustbelt enclave - made up of the scummy parts of the country - a chance to run about in tartan garb, have wee dugs in Jimmy bunnets and for Tory Scum banners adorning Motherwell's Civic Centre.

Oh and EU flegs.  That's important.  For the moment.

[Blootoon87]

Well we've been one nation state for over 300 years but I would grant the disaffected Scotch their own wee rustbelt enclave - made up of the scummy parts of the country - a chance to run about in tartan garb, have wee dugs in Jimmy bunnets and for Tory Scum banners adorning Motherwell's Civic Centre.
Oh and EU flegs.  That's important.  For the moment.

How exactly would the borders work? Presumably you're against borders at all costs, so would you be happy with putting up borders at half a dozen or so Scottish council areas?

[BFTD]

If you ever worry that we might actually be stuck without the right to reconsider our future for another hundred years (or whatever someone else decides), or that Westminster might somehow be capable of constructing a compelling argument against Scottish independence, the politics forum on P&B is just absolute magic for sweeping those blues away.

Thanks to the few remaining unionist posters for being willing to vent their screaming panicky nightmares and reassure swing voters that independence seems like the sane option these days.