The 2021 election and a mandate for Indyref2.

[SANTAN]

47 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Youre going to have to provide examples, 11 arrests were made at George Square that night, the vast majority being from the unionist side, the violence and sectarianism which erupted only came from one side, only one side was throwing Nazi salutes and running riot, any attempt to frame it differently is nothing short of desperation. 

Or alternatively you could try and follow a thread rather than jump in half way through and try and dictate the rules. 

There was definitely unpleasant scenes from both sides, hence their being arrests on both sides, which side had more arrests than the other is a completely separate debate which you've introduced whilst simultaneously ranting about Nazis and violence for some bizarre reason. Talk about desperation. 

[NotThePars]

The red herring is that if Scotland becomes independent it’s so obvious looking at the SNP’s governance and bland ideology that nothing would fundamentally change beyond being governed from Westminster. I would wager that the SNP post-independence would push for as frictionless a border with England as is feasible and probably retain most of the cultural and economic ties that they can.

The problem is that there’s a clown car government of children down south empowered by virtually every major institution of the British state that is unpredictably stupid and vindictive that might blow everything up if it doesn’t get its way. And they’ll still scoosh the next election and maybe the one after it. That’s where the problems lie going forward for any separation from the UK and it feels like a lot of the discussion about how potentially difficult independence could be ignores that that’s where the problems likely lie because we assume Westminster will act rationally when it vacillated for the last 5 years between chest beating nativism and vague assurances of cooperating over Brexit.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

8 minutes ago, Stormzy said:

Or alternatively you could try and follow a thread rather than jump in half way through and try and dictate the rules. 

There was definitely unpleasant scenes from both sides, hence their being arrests on both sides, which side had more arrests than the other is a completely separate debate which you've introduced whilst simultaneously ranting about Nazis and violence for some bizarre reason. Talk about desperation. 

The nazi salutes were mentioned because on the date you mentioned at the time you mentioned this was in most right thinking people’s recollections the most distasteful and disturbing thing that went on along with the violence. You can argue ‘but both sides were unpleasant’ but the only arrests i can find for the yes side were too wee lassies whom appeared to have been arrested for their own safety for obstruction as the sight of them waving a saltire was apparently enough for actual adults to spit at them and try and assault them. The footage of far right unionist thugs chasing people down buchanan street is also quite compelling. 

[Boo Khaki]

44 minutes ago, Thistle_do_nicely said:

thing is, if you were a youngish Yes voter in 2014 off the back of Labour/Lib Dem/Tory parties all backing No + in the face of the relentlessly miserable, negative media coverage then I'm not so sure support for independence will just "thaw" to support for the status quo as time goes by.

Also - everything since 2014 points to any notional status quo as being a red herring. Our future Union or no Union has a fair amount of uncertainty in it too.

I'm leaning towards another deeply unpopular conflict in the next 5 years being what finally breaks the Tories dominance, but maybe we're at the point where nobody down south would even care enough to punt them out from an Iraq war style debacle (shooting from the hip but I think that may have been a perfect storm; being seen to be America's lapdog for an unpopular George Bush was more damaging from people that didn't really give a shit about going into the war itself, plus the Dr David Kelly stuff  was damaging from people that didn't want the war in the first place. Afaik that + Gordon Brown replacing Tony Blair finished Labour off. The "bigoted woman" comment, what with the way Brexit turned out a few years later, was probably more important a factor than anyone maybe even realised at the time too...)

This is significant. 

I was chatting to a friend the other day who is extremely well off, a genuinely decent guy, but is clearly a 'new labour' advocate and would still vote to preserve the union. I know him reasonably well, but not so well that we're intimately familiar with each other's politics before now, and he's a relatively new friend, so we're both still discovering each other's pasts etc.

When it became apparent to him that I am in favour of Independence, he launched into an obviously heartfelt discourse about how '20 years ago things were going quite well/Scotland was doing ok/we don't need to leave the union to get back to that' etc. He was genuinely dumbfounded when I explained to him that it was Blair era Labour/SLAB, the contempt for the Scots electorate, taking Scots seats for granted, McConnell ignoring Scots opinion to fall into line over Iraq, David Kelly, etc etc etc, that finally led to me becoming completely convinced for the need for Independence from Westminster.

For a lot of Labour supporters, they still seem to think they're the party of natural order in Scotland, presume that nationalists are driven by hatred of the Tories and England. I've mentioned this before on here, but for as much as I despise Thatcher, I found Blair and his New Lab chums to be, ultimately, the more repellent. It's Labour that caused my desire for Independence, not the fucking Tories, bizarre as that might seem.

Edited February 21, 2021 by Boo Khaki

[SANTAN]

28 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

The nazi salutes were mentioned because on the date you mentioned at the time you mentioned this was in most right thinking people’s recollections the most distasteful and disturbing thing that went on along with the violence. You can argue ‘but both sides were unpleasant’ but the only arrests i can find for the yes side were too wee lassies whom appeared to have been arrested for their own safety for obstruction as the sight of them waving a saltire was apparently enough for actual adults to spit at them and try and assault them. The footage of far right unionist thugs chasing people down buchanan street is also quite compelling. 

I refer you to my previous post...

You're moving the goalposts to try and start a new discussion, at least do that with your chest rather than tag teaming in from the previous poster.

This person was claiming there were no parallels to be drawn, that is untrue, I provided evidence of this and now you are now contesting something completely different to what I was initially replying to. I'm not quite certain why you're doing so, it can be hard to keep up with every member in these royals rumble type discussions. 

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

10 minutes ago, Stormzy said:

I refer you to my previous post...

You're moving the goalposts to try and start a new discussion, at least do that with your chest rather than tag teaming in from the previous poster.

This person was claiming there were no parallels to be drawn, that is untrue, I provided evidence of this and now you are now contesting something completely different to what I was initially replying to. I'm not quite certain why you're doing so, it can be hard to keep up with every member in these royals rumble type discussions. 

There absolutely are no parallels to be drawn, there is absolutely no thug type element in the indy camp, it just doesnt exist. There are some mentalists granted but even ‘the scottish resistance’  couldnt fight sleep. Youre surely a parody? Tag teaming?hahaha. 

[SandyCromarty]

1 hour ago, Stormzy said:

Or alternatively you could try and follow a thread rather than jump in half way through and try and dictate the rules. 

There was definitely unpleasant scenes from both sides, hence their being arrests on both sides, which side had more arrests than the other is a completely separate debate which you've introduced whilst simultaneously ranting about Nazis and violence for some bizarre reason. Talk about desperation. 

Interesting how a committed unionist uses the word dictate.

[SANTAN]

10 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

There absolutely are no parallels to be drawn, there is absolutely no thug type element in the indy camp, it just doesnt exist. There are some mentalists granted but even ‘the scottish resistance’  couldnt fight sleep. Youre surely a parody? Tag teaming?hahaha. 

There are plenty of parallels to be drawn between both sets of flag shaggers. Both sides that used intimidation tactics, had multiple arrests and acted generally thuggish. It's mental that these two sides were on either side of a protest and you don't think there are any parallels like bro they were literally standing parallel to each other..

The idea that you can't find any fault in one side is more of a parody type post than anything I've said. 

Someone said there were some unsavoury elements in the Yes campaign, about 5 people said this was all made up, complete fantasy stuff, there was no trouble what so ever... I merely responded this wasn't strictly true and no another 5 people are trying to lecture me about how unsavoury the Unionst side was like I ever tried to deny that...

[SANTAN]

8 minutes ago, SandyCromarty said:

Interesting how a committed unionist uses the word dictate.

I don't think I agree with anything that you find particularly interesting. 

[SandyCromarty]

7 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

There absolutely are no parallels to be drawn, there is absolutely no thug type element in the indy camp, it just doesnt exist. There are some mentalists granted but even ‘the scottish resistance’  couldnt fight sleep. Youre surely a parody? Tag teaming?hahaha. 

There's no doubt George Square was unacceptable.

I attend as many AUOB marches as I can and always enjoy our camaraderie and can honestly say that we are a happy well behaved bunch.

As I posted earlier on every march we have to walk past around 20-30 unionists who are screaming vile abuse at the top of their lungs at us, the language  is disgusting, and the hatred etched on their faces reminds me of wild animals howling, I honestly never thought that such people existed that could drive themselves into a frenzy, for what?

We march past quietly and ignore them and put the children to the outside.

Believe me, if it weren't for the stewards and police by them they would be more than capable of violent crazed acts against us. 

[dirty dingus]

There was a group of Celtic/Republican casuals out for a scrap mingling within the Yes movement on the big march through Glasgow in 2018. There was also Rangers casuals out the same day along the Broomielaw waving flags and throwing Nazi salutes. This was more to do with football rivalry and nowt to do with any YES/Unionists movement. On the night there was trouble at George Square in 2014  it was 99% yoons causing the trouble. A call had went out on Rangers media so as it was mainly trouble making idiots from there. The previous 2-3 nights there was a small group of unionists up at the chambers but it was mainly good humoured banter between the sides.

[SANTAN]

10 minutes ago, SandyCromarty said:

There's no doubt George Square was unacceptable.

I attend as many AUOB marches as I can and always enjoy our camaraderie and can honestly say that we are a happy well behaved bunch.

As I posted earlier on every march we have to walk past around 20-30 unionists who are screaming vile abuse at the top of their lungs at us, the language  is disgusting, and the hatred etched on their faces reminds me of wild animals howling, I honestly never thought that such people existed that could drive themselves into a frenzy, for what?

We march past quietly and ignore them and put the children to the outside.

Believe me, if it weren't for the stewards and police by them they would be more than capable of violent crazed acts against us. 

Like a shield wall?

That was a beautiful poetic post Sandy. I acknowledge you backed up my point made previously so credit where credit is due. 

[SANTAN]

6 minutes ago, dirty dingus said:

There was a group of Celtic/Republican casuals out for a scrap mingling within the Yes movement on the big march through Glasgow in 2018. There was also Rangers casuals out the same day along the Broomielaw waving flags and throwing Nazi salutes. This was more to do with football rivalry and nowt to do with any YES/Unionists movement. On the night there was trouble at George Square in 2014  it was 99% yoons causing the trouble. A call had went out on Rangers media so as it was mainly trouble making idiots from there. The previous 2-3 nights there was a small group of unionists up at the chambers but it was mainly good humoured banter between the sides.

So who was the other 1% out of interest? 

Is it two cheeks of the same arse as you guys like to say? 

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

4 minutes ago, Stormzy said:

So who was the other 1% out of interest? 

Is it two cheeks of the same arse as you guys like to say? 

Chelsea fans

[Granny Danger]

5 hours ago, MixuFruit said:

Growing old drifting right works when right means a bit less regulation, a bit more laissez-faire economics. Wobbling around a stable political average.

It doesn't work when people can't have a house/kids till they're 40, can't retire till they're 67 (& in a few years time 68? 69? 70?). You can't sell capitalism to people who can't acquire capital.

I do want that to be correct.  Sadly, I don’t think it is.

[madwullie]

Sorry, what are their policies again? 

[Double Jack D]

On 19/02/2021 at 23:14, D.A.F.C said:

I’m voting snp and hoping that they put forward the case for independence and a referendum but I can’t see the uk government allowing it.

How does it work exactly, I’m not sure we need years of hassle after covid but willing to sacrifice finances and have austerity if an independent Scotland will work for future generations. Covid has made me think that the snp are all style and no substance. TBH devo max would do me for a few years until things recover. I’m not anti Scottish or independence, just being pragmatic.

Devo max would be my ideal constitutional set-up. However, it has become abundantly clear that it just isn't an option no matter how much Gordon Broon promises it. Pragmatism isn't a strong point in UK politics.

[D.A.F.C]

34 minutes ago, madwullie said:

Sorry, what are their policies again? 

Can see them doing well but not anything to trouble the snp.

They are the only real alternative now that Labour is dead.

Plenty of rich folk will vote for them, they need to ramp up the fear factor. It works.

[jakedee]

Sorry, what are their policies again? 

[BFTD]

2 hours ago, madwullie said:

Sorry, what are their policies again? 

TBF, anyone who votes for them will want them to do whatever Boris says, so it doesn't matter.

I don't think I've received any bumph from the Tories that mentioned their policies (other than ULSTER SCOTLAND SAYS NO!) in a good ten years, as they know they're all vote losers here. I've had several leaflets for their candidates that didn't even mention which party they were standing for, which tells you everything you need to know.

Edit: is there any chance...any at all...that Kirstene Hair could be made Minister for the Union?

God, that would be amazing.

Edited February 22, 2021 by BFTD