Celtic and Hearts B Teams in Lowland League?

[Burnieman]

1 hour ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

But the point is they wish to play against mens teams rather than the same youth teams 

B teams do not need to be age restricted, that's just a rule brought in to govern their participation in the LL.

[Cowden Cowboy]

35 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

They might be better off playing alongside and learning from some older and more experienced players.

They might or some of them might but that theory in isolation is no more robust - it’s just an opinion - these B team guys are saying they want to keep their team unit together and play to their own system/style against more challenging opposition (men).  It’s a valid theory both options will likely benefit young players.  

[Brazilianlex]

44 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

They might be better off playing alongside and learning from some older and more experienced players.

It seems that Rangers and Celtic have moved away from loans and want their young players to learn the first team system playing in a B Team so that if called upon they can step into the first team. 
Not sure that other top tier Clubs support that view so much and are more amenable to loans.

Could be wrong but it seems to me that the vast majority of Old Firm loanees are on the way out and seems to be a way to ease them out the door and get signed up by other Clubs.

[Sergeant Wilson]

30 minutes ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

They might or some of them might but that theory in isolation is no more robust - it’s just an opinion - these B team guys are saying they want to keep their team unit together and play to their own system/style against more challenging opposition (men).  It’s a valid theory both options will likely benefit young players.  

 

18 minutes ago, Brazilianlex said:

It seems that Rangers and Celtic have moved away from loans and want their young players to learn the first team system playing in a B Team so that if called upon they can step into the first team. 
Not sure that other top tier Clubs support that view so much and are more amenable to loans.

Could be wrong but it seems to me that the vast majority of Old Firm loanees are on the way out and seems to be a way to ease them out the door and get signed up by other Clubs.

Own system or 1st team system, maybe you could get together and decide? While you're at it, I'll accept it might be good for "elite" young players, but how does it benefit other clubs, particularly those in divisions below?

Edited March 13, 2023 by Sergeant Wilson

[Cowden Cowboy]

49 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

B teams do not need to be age restricted, that's just a rule brought in to govern their participation in the LL.

Well if they are looking to develop their young players the vast majority of the players would be young - if they wanted traditional reserve teams they would be advocating for that and they would call it a reserve team.  The point is that most people arguing against B teams don’t really do so because of the player development effectiveness or otherwise rather they just don’t want B teams (particularly Old Firm) in the pyramid as that compromises the credibility of the relevant league competition.  Sticking to that side of the debate/argument would be better than theoretical debates about whether or not B teams help young players develop.  

[Ginaro]

The thing that comes to mind with regards to legal agreements is, didn't the SFA effectively hold the LL to ransom by not signing off on their rules until they agreed to change the tier 5 boundary? Could they do something similar to get their own way for a new tier 5?

[Cowden Cowboy]

11 minutes ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

 

Own system or 1st team system, maybe you could get together and decide? While you're at it, I'll accept it might be good for "elite" young players, but how does it benefit other clubs, particularly those in divisions below?

Own system and first team system are surely likely to be pretty similar - it’s exactly the same point to all intents 

[craigkillie]

2 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

The thing that comes to mind with regards to legal agreements is, didn't the SFA effectively hold the LL to ransom by not signing off on their rules until they agreed to change the tier 5 boundary? Could they do something similar to get their own way for a new tier 5?

They could in theory, but also the Highland and Lowland League represent a voting bloc of 34 clubs, which is not far off 50% of the SFA voting membership. Therefore it would be very risky for the SFA to attempt this, particularly when these clubs may also have allies within the SPFL.

[Burnieman]

1 minute ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

Well if they are looking to develop their young players the vast majority of the players would be young - if they wanted traditional reserve teams they would be advocating for that and they would call it a reserve team.  The point is that most people arguing against B teams don’t really do so because of the player development effectiveness or otherwise rather they just don’t want B teams (particularly Old Firm) in the pyramid as that compromises the credibility of the relevant league competition.  Sticking to that side of the debate/argument would be better than theoretical debates about whether or not B teams help young players develop.  

I'm not entirely against B team in the Pyramid.  I'm entirely against B teams being shoehorned into it above hundreds of other clubs on the flawed premise that all of a sudden we'll produce a better standard of player as a result (or at least a handful of clubs will).

Scotland used to qualify for World Cups when we had a reserve league with a mix of youth and experience.  B teams can play in that environment again, that environment would perhaps suit those clubs who don't hoover up youth players and instead can bring in 3 or 4 senior players who need game time.  It worked before, why do our new age coaches think it can't work again?  Look at yesterdays report on the amount of game time U21's get in the Premiership, it's absolutely horrific (Hibs and Ross County had none at all) and B teams won't sort that.

[Burnieman]

I'd also point out, how many future Scotland internationals (or regular Rangers first team players) did the new Rangers develop as they worked their way from L2 to the Premiership? an ideal opportunity to give their youth experience and develop them into better players against adult sides at a lower level. That was an experiment over a 4 season period.

Nobody really springs to mind.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

11 hours ago, Shannon said:

This is the same podcast that took everything that George Fraser said as gospel and that B teams were 1 season only when everyone else knew that of course would never be the case. The Lowland League clubs may vote for it as too many with nothing to lose & easily bribed but I am hopeful Highland League wont vote for it due to distance they will have to travel and they don't want to play Rangers / Celtic / Hearts colts and rather play teams in the Highlands.

That Mozza guy was responsible for one of the most sneeringly condescending posts in P&B history at that time, looking down the nose at all the clubs who’d been shafted and spent money on gaining a licence because his wee pal George was feeding him complete nonsense. Looking back at that im cringing on a cellular level. 
 

Anyway, Mick Kennedy seems to believe that this reconstruction will also shut the door on Scottish Cup Entry for teams below tier 5 also. But all the tartan army will plunge millions into the sfa coffers and finance this. 

[Salvo Montalbano]

3 hours ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

But the point is they wish to play against mens teams rather than the same youth teams 

We all remember that you were very positive about B teams being brought into the SPFL when Cowdenbeath were in League Two, so it's no surprise to see you back. However, the above comment makes no sense, and surely you must see that? They want their players to play mens teams rather than other youth teams, but the solution is to play in a league where the majority of teams in it and majority of games they'd play.... is youth teams?!?

[FairWeatherFan]

29 minutes ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

Own system and first team system are surely likely to be pretty similar - it’s exactly the same point to all intents 

Isn't the problem with that instead of playing to players strengths, they're boxed in to the way they can play. Seeing players that don't fit the model cast aside.

Restricts coaches development, and scouting isn't necessarily looking for the best player but the best player for the "system".

 

[Burnieman]

19 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

 But all the tartan army will plunge millions into the sfa coffers and finance this. 

Seriously, you ruin any point you have to make with this mad crap

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

3 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

Seriously, you ruin any point you have to make with this mad crap

So you think that supporting the sfa’s flagship team, paying the wages of people who are conspiring to shaft your clubs progress is ‘mad crap’? Just so you can feel better about drawing with Uzbekistan and singing doe a deer whilst pishing in a fountain? 

[Burnieman]

3 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

So you think that supporting the sfa’s flagship team, paying the wages of people who are conspiring to shaft your clubs progress is ‘mad crap’? Just so you can feel better about drawing with Uzbekistan and singing doe a deer whilst pishing in a fountain? 

Linking Scotland games to B teams is truly bonkers, even for this place.

I recall moving the kick-off time for a Clydebank Junior Cup game so a busload of Bankies fans could make Hampden for the Scotland game the same day.

I blame those Clydebank fans for the existence of B teams, b*stards  

[welshbairn]

54 minutes ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

 Sticking to that side of the debate/argument would be better than theoretical debates about whether or not B teams help young players develop.

Is that not all you do?

[Brazilianlex]

13 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

I'd also point out, how many future Scotland internationals (or regular Rangers first team players) did the new Rangers develop as they worked their way from L2 to the Premiership? an ideal opportunity to give their youth experience and develop them into better players against adult sides at a lower level. That was an experiment over a 4 season period.

Nobody really springs to mind.

The Club Academy system doesn’t work in Scotland.
When Mark Wotte was at the SFA, his view was that Clubs were not the place to develop young players but that there should be Regional Academies run by SFA coaches then there would be a draft pick style allocation of players to Clubs. The performance schools was the first step.

As soon as he mentioned the second step,  he was dead meat !

[Brazilianlex]

29 minutes ago, Salvo Montalbano said:

We all remember that you were very positive about B teams being brought into the SPFL when Cowdenbeath were in League Two, so it's no surprise to see you back. However, the above comment makes no sense, and surely you must see that? They want their players to play mens teams rather than other youth teams, but the solution is to play in a league where the majority of teams in it and majority of games they'd play.... is youth teams?!?

You are way wrong on that one, Club and fans of Cowdenbeath have never supported B Teams.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

19 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

Linking Scotland games to B teams is truly bonkers, even for this place.

I recall moving the kick-off time for a Clydebank Junior Cup game so a busload of Bankies fans could make Hampden for the Scotland game the same day.

I blame those Clydebank fans for the existence of B teams, b*stards  

If you dont see that as a paying customer of the sfa that voting with your feet is an effective way to show your dissatisfaction with their governance of Scottish Football then I dont know how to help you understand it more.