Next to go?

[LongTimeLurker]

On 06/12/2023 at 14:37, Bring Back Paddy Flannery said:

If daft wee clubs like East Kilbride come up they wont last long once the chicken man/inverstors get bored...

...but then there's Pollok and Clydebank who have bigger supports than most L2 clubs and even some in L1. 

[O'Kelly Isley III]

2 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

...but then there's Pollok and Clydebank who have bigger supports than most L2 clubs and even some in L1. 

... partly because they both are doing well in their current environment and the admission and travel costs are lower for supporters.  The travel radius is much smaller for their league fixtures, with nothing comparable to say Annan/Cove or Stranraer/Peterhead.

It's never quite as simple as it seems, and whilst I have the utmost respect for what the Bankies have achieved, I'd be interested to see how the Newlandsfield massive would cope with a few seasons of mediocrity upstairs, but at least they are a solid club with a history. 

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

20 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

...but then there's Pollok and Clydebank who have bigger supports than most L2 clubs and even some in L1. 

That’s because Pollok and Clydebank aren’t daft wee clubs like East Kilbride.

[EdinburghBlue]

14 minutes ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

... partly because they both are doing well in their current environment and the admission and travel costs are lower for supporters.  The travel radius is much smaller for their league fixtures, with nothing comparable to say Annan/Cove or Stranraer/Peterhead.

It's never quite as simple as it seems, and whilst I have the utmost respect for what the Bankies have achieved, I'd be interested to see how the Newlandsfield massive would cope with a few seasons of mediocrity upstairs, but at least they are a solid club with a history. 

Your point about the travel radius is a good one. Typically Stranraer take about 75 – 100 fans to away games in the central belt, but often teams visiting Stair Park bring only 10-20.

[Ivo den Bieman]

22 hours ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

When you and I were lads Jack we had two divisions of 18 and 19 teams respectively.  We're never going to return to that but why not three divisions of 12, 15 and 15 clubs, to maintain the 42-club status quo, with promotion/relegation on the basis you describe but the participant numbers designed to make as many clubs as possible still having a skin in the game come the season's end.

Also, just how many Highland League clubs actually desire to ascend to the senior structure ?  It's not a criticism, quite the opposite in fact, as it's always seemed a decent competition to me - be careful of what you wish for and all that....

To be fair only Buckie are really lukewarm about promotion- otherwise the current top 5/6 would take it without hesitation if offered. Brechin would of course be the most enthusiastic but the likes of Rothes, Formartine also really keen. Unfortunately, the standards really have dropped in the HFL in the last two decades and now that Cove have been promoted a Highland contender versus club 42 will be a rare thing. There's just too much money in the LL, and I think for now Brechin missed their shot.

An 18-team league 2 isn't happening; a 14 or 16 team league would be large enough to allow for champions top go up automatically and the play off between the side finishing third bottom in SPFL2 and the runners up in HL / LL..

Ceretainly the pyramid needs much more "ventilation" in promotion and relegation not just at the interface between SPFL2 and the top senior non-leagues, but also between LL / HFL and the leagues below them. IMO the bottom four should go down from the LL to clear out comse of the accidental dross from its formation and bring in more of the Polloks, Clydebanks, Auchinlecks and Linlithgows.

[Jacksgranda]

If I could give you another greenie for "and the top senior non-leagues,"...I would.

[HibeeJibee]

Saturday 9th December 2023

Cowdenbeath 3-3 Celtic B
Cumbernauld Colts 2-1 Berwick Rangers
Edinburgh University 2-2 Albion Rovers
University of Stirling 1-0 East Stirlingshire

Formartine United 4-3 Brechin City

[Silverton End]

1 minute ago, HibeeJibee said:

Saturday 9th December 2023

Cowdenbeath 3-3 Celtic B
Cumbernauld Colts 2-1 Berwick Rangers
Edinburgh University 2-2 Albion Rovers
University of Stirling 1-0 East Stirlingshire

Formartine United 4-3 Brechin City

It's a graveyard for SPFL clubs

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

2 hours ago, HibeeJibee said:

Saturday 9th December 2023

Cowdenbeath 3-3 Celtic B
Cumbernauld Colts 2-1 Berwick Rangers
Edinburgh University 2-2 Albion Rovers
University of Stirling 1-0 East Stirlingshire

Formartine United 4-3 Brechin City

I have absolutely nae idea what your point is here tbh. Cowdenbeath, Albion Rovers, Berwick Rangers and East Stirling had some of the smallest core supports in the SPFL, and had numerous season between them at the arse end of Division 3/League 2. When the pyramid opened up they were always going to struggle and I don’t think a single soul expected them to start tearing things up in the Lowland league. Albion Rovers looked a fairly decent side last season but I’m not entirely shocked they haven’t adjusted well.

The raging hardon some folk get over previous SPFL clubs struggling after being relegated is utterly bizarre stuff. 

FWIW Brechin are 1 point behind 1st placed Banks O’ Dee with 2 games in hand.

[BFTD]

Back when the trapdoor first opened, there were a few Berwick fans (not HibeeJibee) who enjoyed trolling on club threads for teams that they considered beneath them, and liable to be imminently relegated from the SPFL. Really properly delighted at the idea that other clubs might struggle to survive such an event.

Not sure why that popped into my head just now.

[LoonsYouthTeam]

4 hours ago, BFTD said:

Back when the trapdoor first opened, there were a few Berwick fans (not HibeeJibee) who enjoyed trolling on club threads for teams that they considered beneath them, and liable to be imminently relegated from the SPFL. Really properly delighted at the idea that other clubs might struggle to survive such an event.

Not sure why that popped into my head just now.

#mergeangus

[ScottishLoon]

3 hours ago, LoonsYouthTeam said:

#mergeangus

An Angus FC team with a Dick Campbell, Jim Weir and Stewart Petrie management trio and a front 3 of Gavin Swankie, Rory McAllister and Bobby Linn In their prime could have at least taken alloa to penalties in the 2015 play off final.

Edited December 10, 2023 by ScottishLoon

[DiegoDiego]

On 08/12/2023 at 15:18, Ivo den Bieman said:

Ceretainly the pyramid needs much more "ventilation" in promotion and relegation not just at the interface between SPFL2 and the top senior non-leagues, but also between LL / HFL and the leagues below them. IMO the bottom four should go down from the LL to clear out comse of the accidental dross from its formation and bring in more of the Polloks, Clydebanks, Auchinlecks and Linlithgows.

Four down from the LL to get rid of dross from its formation like Berwick and Shire as it stands, or Rovers and Cowden just above them?

I support more relegation at the bottom end (though not massively, one extra down would be enough as much of that accidental dross has already vanished (like Garry o'Connor's management career).

Although I wanted a functioning pyramid in place, I didn't take any great pleasure in any of the relegations (though I admit, Cowden's show car crash was somewhat entertaining). However the reality is that if two go down this season it's very possible that the Lowland League dross people talk about clogging up the system will be the former SPFL sides.

Don't get me wrong, replacing Elgin or Forfar in the league with East Kilbride is a horrific scenario, but the reality is that clubs running the traditional blueprint of strong community links and funding through ticket sales and fans with businesses, are being overtaken by clubs with a business model where sales of scarves and season tickets are a rounding error in their budgets.

All the league reconstruction in the world won't change that.

Any part-time "SPFLClassic" clubs need to be conscious of this and come up with a way to compete against this new model. I don't envy them. Even if Edinburgh City do go pop this week and a space opens up, it will be too late for Albion Rovers whom we may sadly never play national level football again.

[O'Kelly Isley III]

46 minutes ago, DiegoDiego said:

Four down from the LL to get rid of dross from its formation like Berwick and Shire as it stands, or Rovers and Cowden just above them?

I support more relegation at the bottom end (though not massively, one extra down would be enough as much of that accidental dross has already vanished (like Garry o'Connor's management career).

Although I wanted a functioning pyramid in place, I didn't take any great pleasure in any of the relegations (though I admit, Cowden's show car crash was somewhat entertaining). However the reality is that if two go down this season it's very possible that the Lowland League dross people talk about clogging up the system will be the former SPFL sides.

Don't get me wrong, replacing Elgin or Forfar in the league with East Kilbride is a horrific scenario, but the reality is that clubs running the traditional blueprint of strong community links and funding through ticket sales and fans with businesses, are being overtaken by clubs with a business model where sales of scarves and season tickets are a rounding error in their budgets.

All the league reconstruction in the world won't change that.

Any part-time "SPFLClassic" clubs need to be conscious of this and come up with a way to compete against this new model. I don't envy them. Even if Edinburgh City do go pop this week and a space opens up, it will be too late for Albion Rovers whom we may sadly never play national level football again.

Maybe it's time the football authorities adopted a 'fit and proper football club' criteria for aspirants to the senior structure.  What exactly is the business model for East Kilbride, for example ?  Is it sustainable ?

And Edinburgh City 'popping' might just remind folk of Gretna all those years ago.  Bad as the dross in the lower leagues may appear to some people, as least most of these clubs have demonstrable track records of operating.  The last thing we need is an influx of boom and bust outfits.

Just some sensible background checks, that's all I'm suggesting.

[DiegoDiego]

That's a nice idea, but if Ed City's new owners couldn't tell they were being sold a timebomb, then I'm sure the previous owners could have presented a plausible case to meet whatever criteria the league put in place. Certainly to the point where it could hold up in court.

"So Kelty Hearts, is your business model sustainable?"

"Oh yes, unfortunately we really don't have much money to spend on players, probably start the season with Old Jock as coach. It'll be a struggle to stay in the league, but we've got a strong community behind us."

"Sounds great, you're in."

"Thank you! We're delighted!" [gets on phone] "Hello, yes, are you the agent for Kallum Higginbotham?"

However, my biggest worry, having followed Scottish football for decades, is that any fit and proper test would be applied very differently to some clubs/prospective owners than others. (See also: UEFA FFP rules.)

I suppose an objective, simple and fair law might be something like having a maximum percentage of previous season's income from a certain number of sources. For example, if 70% of your income came from two sponsors then you would fail, but if 70% of your income was from prize money, gate receipts, league funding and club lottery, then you'd be fine. However, accountants will always find a way around these things.

[BFTD]

12 minutes ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

Maybe it's time the football authorities adopted a 'fit and proper football club' criteria for aspirants to the senior structure.  What exactly is the business model for East Kilbride, for example ?  Is it sustainable ?

And Edinburgh City 'popping' might just remind folk of Gretna all those years ago.  Bad as the dross in the lower leagues may appear to some people, as least most of these clubs have demonstrable track records of operating.  The last thing we need is an influx of boom and bust outfits.

Just some sensible background checks, that's all I'm suggesting.

From top to bottom, Scotland's in love with the idea of sugar daddies. The authorities bend over backwards for money when they're allowed, and the press are absolutely joyous about "fairytale" stories of clubs spending far beyond their means; it only seems to be fans who offer dissent, and even then it's often because other clubs are being subsidised and theirs isn't. I can't see that changing without the kind of domino effect financial meltdown we all remember not happening after original recipe Rangers were liquidated. Maybe not even then.

[O'Kelly Isley III]

3 minutes ago, BFTD said:

From top to bottom, Scotland's in love with the idea of sugar daddies. The authorities bend over backwards for money when they're allowed, and the press are absolutely joyous about "fairytale" stories of clubs spending far beyond their means; it only seems to be fans who offer dissent, and even then it's often because other clubs are being subsidised and theirs isn't. I can't see that changing without the kind of domino effect financial meltdown we all remember not happening after original recipe Rangers were liquidated. Maybe not even then.

It could change if clubs were licensed and had to operate within some sort of fiscal discipline but there's no way the authorities or the clubs would countenance that sort of cold turkey, so we'll lurch on with the current roster of totally unsuitable ownership and shoogly financial scaffolding, my own club being a prime example.

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

34 minutes ago, BFTD said:

From top to bottom, Scotland's in love with the idea of sugar daddies. The authorities bend over backwards for money when they're allowed, and the press are absolutely joyous about "fairytale" stories of clubs spending far beyond their means; it only seems to be fans who offer dissent, and even then it's often because other clubs are being subsidised and theirs isn't. 

What ever do you mean? I was always under the impression these pioneers of our game were showing… AMBITION.

[nofixedability]

41 minutes ago, Bring Back Paddy Flannery said:

What ever do you mean? I was always under the impression these pioneers of our game were showing… AMBITION.

Yep, gotta love ‘ambitious’ clubs that throw money around like confetti then cry a few season later when the bubble bursts.

[May Rckinnon]

2 hours ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

Maybe it's time the football authorities adopted a 'fit and proper football club' criteria for aspirants to the senior structure.  What exactly is the business model for East Kilbride, for example ?  Is it sustainable ?

And Edinburgh City 'popping' might just remind folk of Gretna all those years ago.  Bad as the dross in the lower leagues may appear to some people, as least most of these clubs have demonstrable track records of operating.  The last thing we need is an influx of boom and bust outfits.

Just some sensible background checks, that's all I'm suggesting.

The EK business model is something along the lines of: chicken man brings ball, only he can play with ball, then takes ball home with him.