Next to go?

[WattersIsGod]

55 minutes ago, Bring Back Paddy Flannery said:

How many clubs who are in a solidly based in a community actually manage to attract members of said community outwith their core support? I suspect the number is miniscule. Regardless of what clubs try, people support who they support and no matter what clubs do that will rarely change. 

In recent years we’ve managed to attract a fairly sizeable group of wee guys who come down for a sing song with their pals but every season the older ones seem to disappear never to return - mostly because they are brought up as Rangers and Celtic fans and that eventually takes over once they’ve outgrown the wee day out with their pals. The only hope is we manage to retain a handful of them every season and they stick around. You could probably count on one hand the amount of adult supporters we’ve managed to lure in to support us over their currently supported clubs. 

Clubs will generally see a wee boost when they are performing well/in a title race but that’s about as far as it goes.

This 100% echoes my experience in 35 years of following Stirling Albion.

Even if your in a pretty well populated area, it's hard to grow the support.

Similarly to the above, we do get groups of youngsters following for a while but it never seems to translate into an ongoing increase in following.

We had a good year last year and crowds were up and season ticket sales for this year a bit too but it will drop away again at some point

[CrispyMelon]

2 hours ago, Bring Back Paddy Flannery said:

How many clubs who are in a solidly based in a community actually manage to attract members of said community outwith their core support? I suspect the number is miniscule. Regardless of what clubs try, people support who they support and no matter what clubs do that will rarely change. 

In recent years we’ve managed to attract a fairly sizeable group of wee guys who come down for a sing song with their pals but every season the older ones seem to disappear never to return - mostly because they are brought up as Rangers and Celtic fans and that eventually takes over once they’ve outgrown the wee day out with their pals. The only hope is we manage to retain a handful of them every season and they stick around. You could probably count on one hand the amount of adult supporters we’ve managed to lure in to support us over their currently supported clubs. 

Clubs will generally see a wee boost when they are performing well/in a title race but that’s about as far as it goes.

Aye that’s the concern. Why I said “in theory at least”. Always gonna be hard to rally new fans to come out for games against Caledonian Braves and Gala Fairydean (no disrespect to either). Albion especially, their prices and offers last season I thought were excellent and it’s a real shame the crowds just haven’t improved. Inevitable when you’re dwelling at the basement of L2 but it’s a chicken and egg situation.

Arguably the one advantage of Elgin’s location if they did end up going down. While some fans will drift away if we dropped into HL, the numerous local derbies will fuel interest for many. 

I don’t think relegation to the lowland league will be anywhere near as bad a thing if/once the LL opens up at both ends. Even if you compare Shire’s first season in the LL to Rovers’s first this season, the league has gotten much better. Ironically, making it easier for teams to remain in the SPFL May seem beneficial short-term to these sides, but will be far more damaging in the long run if it doesn’t change and the inevitable happens for many of the teams in the bottom tier.

 

 

Edited December 6, 2023 by CrispyMelon

[CrispyMelon]

3 hours ago, oneteaminglasgow said:

They’re in the process of getting that sorted via Crownpoint, are they not?

I know it’s by no means a done deal, but if that comes through then I can’t imagine Clyde being locked out the SPFL forever. I know the whole ‘big club’ thing is overplayed, but how many clubs currently outside the SPFL are organically bigger than the clubs within it? Maybe a handful? Once the guys flinging money at certain clubs get bored, you’re probably not looking at that many clubs who could displace current SPFL clubs in the long term. 

Generally, I think, in time, we’ll see teams who come up for a season and go back down and vice versa, and some other teams who’ve previously come up and made a bit of a splash head back down the way as the money dries up.

I think under the current system some, but very few, clubs that drop out of L2 will make it back anytime soon.

If Clyde get confirmation on Crownpoint soon and McCall can keep their head above water until then then Clyde will likely have a revival of sorts and can put concerns of relegation on the back burner. If they get confirmation of Crownpoint but don’t stay up I’m sure there will be enough interest for people to stick around and the club to keep ticking.

Once the league opens up a bit, relegation out of the football league won’t seem as daunting.

[Red Kite]

Some very knowledgeable posters on here, re league set-ups.  I had never heard of Junior Football and still find the whole Scottish Pyramid a bit difficult to get my head around.  That is not to say the English Pyramid is some kind of beacon.  The National League is crackers, with some of the wages being paid.   Tranmere Rovers were asking 19 quid, when down there.  Even now, I can support two non-league teams, two games each, for a total of 22 quid instead.  All the clubs need the cash.  You get a bit of politics in the mix, too, with the system meaning clubs get shifted about e.g. from North West Counties to The Midlands League.  Northwich Victoria and Winsford United both getting less home games after being moved.  Plus, feeder leagues may still not meet ground requirements.  Then, the Welsh League taking players because it is an easy commute.  The so-called smaller clubs who seem most content down here, have a good young crowd who don't want to be telly fans only, good facilities they can hire out, get themselves as a venue for a Ground Hop Day etc.  The balancing act for loads of clubs is so tough.

 

 

 

 

 

[HibeeJibee]

Some posts on previous page have lapsed into the common assumption most 'big' clubs are already in SPFL and few below are as 'big' or well supported. Evidence suggests otherwise?

Edinburgh City are notoriously weakly followed then had ground then owner/name issues, but were still mid-rank in SPFL2 and 500+ average last season. Kelty were best in SPFL2 and 800+ last season. Cove ditto in SPFL2 and 1,000+ last season. Bonnyrigg ditto in SPFL2 last season with 900+. Spartans currently 3rd on 600+. Everybody who comes up grows - and exceeds those they replace.

Plenty more beneath. This season, still in LL + EOSL, you've Linlithgow at about 500... Berwick, Tranent about 400... Bo'ness Utd, Camelon, Cowdenbeath, Dunbar, EK, Musselburgh about 300... and crowd-wise there's considerably more strength-in-depth in WOSL.

There is a portion of Berwick fans clearly perplexed and/or mortified by East Lothian clubs like Dunbar, Haddington, Musselburgh and Tranent surpassing us competitively and breathing down our necks in terms of finance or support. I've no idea why given population/affluence/sponsors/youth set-ups/etc.

It just so happens we were in SFL from 1951-2019 whereas they only turned senior in 2018.

 

On 05/12/2023 at 18:04, O'Kelly Isley III said:

most clubs exiting the senior league structure will find things extremely difficult.

Unsurprisingly... given they'd be amateurs .

(Outside north-east).
 

Edited December 6, 2023 by HibeeJibee

[Jacksgranda]

On 05/12/2023 at 18:04, O'Kelly Isley III said:

 most clubs exiting the senior league structure will find things extremely difficult.  

 

8 minutes ago, HibeeJibee said:

 

Unsurprisingly... given they'd be amateurs .

(Outside north-east).

That may well fly over a few peoples heads...

[Stag Nation]

1 hour ago, Red Kite said:

Some very knowledgeable posters on here, re league set-ups.  I had never heard of Junior Football and still find the whole Scottish Pyramid a bit difficult to get my head around.  That is not to say the English Pyramid is some kind of beacon.  The National League is crackers, with some of the wages being paid.   Tranmere Rovers were asking 19 quid, when down there.  Even now, I can support two non-league teams, two games each, for a total of 22 quid instead.  All the clubs need the cash.  You get a bit of politics in the mix, too, with the system meaning clubs get shifted about e.g. from North West Counties to The Midlands League.  Northwich Victoria and Winsford United both getting less home games after being moved.  Plus, feeder leagues may still not meet ground requirements.  Then, the Welsh League taking players because it is an easy commute.  The so-called smaller clubs who seem most content down here, have a good young crowd who don't want to be telly fans only, good facilities they can hire out, get themselves as a venue for a Ground Hop Day etc.  The balancing act for loads of clubs is so tough.

I’m not surprised you hadn’t heard of ‘Junior ‘ football. Even in Scotland, it was largely unknown outside its geographical heartland. Basically, it cut off its clubs and players from mainstream football for no good reason, following some long-forgotten dispute.
The current pyramid will eventually sort itself out. The remaining ‘Junior’ outposts in the NE and ‘midlands’ will eventually see sense.

I’ll sit back and wait for the abuse!

 

[EdinburghBlue]

Various thoughts:

• While it may be the case that teams relegated in the next few years will struggle to return quickly, we will eventually settle down to a situation similar to England's and that in other pyramids where some teams will go back and forwards between different levels. So while I agree that some teams currently in tiers 2-4 will end up in the Highland/Lowland leagues (and even below), I don't think there is any reason to argue that they won't eventually be able return. Absent (temporary) rich backers, what inherent advantages to recent/prospective new arrivals in the SPFL have over (most of) the teams currently in the SPFL?
• I expect that we may see some reconstruction sometime in the next few years that will facilitate teams moving up/down. With it being clear that last year's Conference League proposals stand no chance of resurrection, I think there will be many club chairman who will now be more willing to consider automatic relegation, because the flipside will be automatic promotion. However, I think that Tier 4 needs to be much bigger than the current 10 if this is going to happen, particularly if there is going to be automatic promotion from the two tier 5 leagues.
• The teams that may find life outside the SPFL most difficult could be those outside the central belt, where player recruitment may become more difficult.
• Perhaps some of the teams wanting promotion to the SPFL should be careful what they wish for. Having looked at many clubs' accounts, it seems obvious that it's very difficult to run an SPFL club with the additional costs compared to the feeder leagues on (anything like) current gate levels. I've heard of one manager of a recently promoted club expressing private frustration that the expected additional budget for new players disappeared on the extra cost of running an SPFL club. Not every promoted club is going to have Sugar daddies like Kelty and Spartans.
• I also wonder how long the increased interest in the promoted clubs will last. Once they settle down to humdrum existence in the SPFL the hike in gates may well disappear.
• The point about the West league is interesting. Perhaps the issue isn't just that some clubs don't want promotion but that standards there aren't as high as some think, particularly with standards rising in the Lowland League.

[annan4eva]

12 hours ago, EdinburghBlue said:

Various thoughts:

• While it may be the case that teams relegated in the next few years will struggle to return quickly, we will eventually settle down to a situation similar to England's and that in other pyramids where some teams will go back and forwards between different levels. So while I agree that some teams currently in tiers 2-4 will end up in the Highland/Lowland leagues (and even below), I don't think there is any reason to argue that they won't eventually be able return. Absent (temporary) rich backers, what inherent advantages to recent/prospective new arrivals in the SPFL have over (most of) the teams currently in the SPFL?
• I expect that we may see some reconstruction sometime in the next few years that will facilitate teams moving up/down. With it being clear that last year's Conference League proposals stand no chance of resurrection, I think there will be many club chairman who will now be more willing to consider automatic relegation, because the flipside will be automatic promotion. However, I think that Tier 4 needs to be much bigger than the current 10 if this is going to happen, particularly if there is going to be automatic promotion from the two tier 5 leagues.
• The teams that may find life outside the SPFL most difficult could be those outside the central belt, where player recruitment may become more difficult.
• Perhaps some of the teams wanting promotion to the SPFL should be careful what they wish for. Having looked at many clubs' accounts, it seems obvious that it's very difficult to run an SPFL club with the additional costs compared to the feeder leagues on (anything like) current gate levels. I've heard of one manager of a recently promoted club expressing private frustration that the expected additional budget for new players disappeared on the extra cost of running an SPFL club. Not every promoted club is going to have Sugar daddies like Kelty and Spartans.
• I also wonder how long the increased interest in the promoted clubs will last. Once they settle down to humdrum existence in the SPFL the hike in gates may well disappear.
• The point about the West league is interesting. Perhaps the issue isn't just that some clubs don't want promotion but that standards there aren't as high as some think, particularly with standards rising in the Lowland League.

Some very good points there well done. L 1 AND 2 hardly exciting ?

[EdinburghBlue]

1 hour ago, annan4eva said:

Some very good points there well done. L 1 AND 2 hardly exciting ?

I would argue pros and cons. The major advantage of the four tier structure with smaller leagues is that it opens up opportunities to win championships/promotions up that really weren't there under the old two tier structure, and arguably even the three tier one. (If I remember correctly my team went through a period when we were either promoted or relegated eight seasons in a row.) But I think it's now becoming too easy to finish bottom of the fourth tier, and the punishment is too great. And there is the argument about the number of times teams play each other.

[razamanaz]

6 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

I would argue pros and cons. The major advantage of the four tier structure with smaller leagues is that it opens up opportunities to win championships/promotions up that really weren't there under the old two tier structure, and arguably even the three tier one. (If I remember correctly my team went through a period when we were either promoted or relegated eight seasons in a row.) But I think it's now becoming too easy to finish bottom of the fourth tier, and the punishment is too great. And there is the argument about the number of times teams play each other.

It takes a while to become the bottom of fourth tier. doesn't happen in one season. Usually teams that aren't well run and needing to reboot and get themselves organised to start again. Saying relegation is too great a punishment is saying to the well-run clubs pushing up the way and winning the league is a waste of time - just keep the old guard in place. Not wanting an argument just an opinion. I like the pyramid, think that it's exciting

[EdinburghBlue]

Agree with your point on bad management for some clubs. Much as I used to enjoy my visits to Firs Park, no one could really argue that East Stirlingshire were unlucky when they were relegated. However, I contrast that with Berwick Rangers, who arguably went down because of a bad run in the last three months of the season, in the only time they finished bottom. And last season Albion Rovers went down with the highest ever points total for a team finishing bottom in the four tier structure, and I think many people who saw a lot of League 2 football last season would say that they weren't the worst team in the league.

Personally I would be happy with automatic promotion and relegation, but from a bigger League 2. If we can get to a situation where most of the clubs in the bottom tier of the SPFL and in the Lowland League spend time in both, as is the case in England, that would be a healthy competitive setup. But I would like us to get away from a situation where "ambition" really means people putting a lot of money into clubs to get promotion. (Often used for stupid salaries for part-time players rather than investing in facilities.) And collectively we need to do something about the cost of running teams at those levels, and the amount of sponsorship income that flows to them.

Edited December 7, 2023 by EdinburghBlue

[Am Featha Taigh Nan Clach]

Get this @EdinburghBlue fellow in charge of Scottish football

[Jacksgranda]

4 hours ago, EdinburghBlue said:

Agree with your point on bad management for some clubs. Much as I used to enjoy my visits to Firs Park, no one could really argue that East Stirlingshire were unlucky when they were relegated. However, I contrast that with Berwick Rangers, who arguably went down because of a bad run in the last three months of the season, in the only time they finished bottom. And last season Albion Rovers went down with the highest ever points total for a team finishing bottom in the four tier structure, and I think many people who saw a lot of League 2 football last season would say that they weren't the worst team in the league.

Personally I would be happy with automatic promotion and relegation, but from a bigger League 2. If we can get to a situation where most of the clubs in the bottom tier of the SPFL and in the Lowland League spend time in both, as is the case in England, that would be a healthy competitive setup. But I would like us to get away from a situation where "ambition" really means people putting a lot of money into clubs to get promotion. (Often used for stupid salaries for part-time players rather than investing in facilities.) And collectively we need to do something about the cost of running teams at those levels, and the amount of sponsorship income that flows to them.

I'd go along with that, an 18 team League Two, giving 34 games per season as opposed to the current 36. Bottom two automatically down to be replaced by the Highland and Lowland League champions, with third bottom playing off against the winners of HL/LL runner's up play off.

But that would mean finding an extra 8 teams - where are they to come from? 4 each from the LL and HL - the fairest option? - would completely strip the HL, and leave it very weak, imo.

Promoting the current HL and LL champions and inviting applications from interested parties to get 6 more - would that work?

Of course, that's all propogated on the basis of the clubs voting for an 18 team League 2, no means certain, I'm sure. 

[O'Kelly Isley III]

24 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said:

I'd go along with that, an 18 team League Two, giving 34 games per season as opposed to the current 36. Bottom two automatically down to be replaced by the Highland and Lowland League champions, with third bottom playing off against the winners of HL/LL runner's up play off.

But that would mean finding an extra 8 teams - where are they to come from? 4 each from the LL and HL - the fairest option? - would completely strip the HL, and leave it very weak, imo.

Promoting the current HL and LL champions and inviting applications from interested parties to get 6 more - would that work?

Of course, that's all propogated on the basis of the clubs voting for an 18 team League 2, no means certain, I'm sure. 

When you and I were lads Jack we had two divisions of 18 and 19 teams respectively.  We're never going to return to that but why not three divisions of 12, 15 and 15 clubs, to maintain the 42-club status quo, with promotion/relegation on the basis you describe but the participant numbers designed to make as many clubs as possible still having a skin in the game come the season's end.

Also, just how many Highland League clubs actually desire to ascend to the senior structure ?  It's not a criticism, quite the opposite in fact, as it's always seemed a decent competition to me - be careful of what you wish for and all that....

Edited December 7, 2023 by O'Kelly Isley III

[Jacksgranda]

2 minutes ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

When you and I were lads Jack we had two divisions of 18 and 19 teams respectively.  We're never going to return to that but why not three divisions of 12, 15 and 15 clubs, to maintain the 42-club status quo, with promotion/relegation on the basis you describe but the participant numbers designed to make as many clubs as possible still having a skin in the game come the season's end.

We had 20 teams for one season until Thirds went bust. I quite enjoyed the old set up + the League Cup Sectional ties, but those days are long gone now. EVERY GAME MUST MEAN SOMETHING!

What you're suggesting could work, but trying to juggle the number of matches to 34/36 for the current League sides might be awkward. Although not insurmountable. 

[O'Kelly Isley III]

Everyone with an interest in this subject should take a look at the Edinburgh City thread in the League Two forum - they currently appear to be in pretty dire straits.

[CrispyMelon]

Like @O'Kelly Isley III said, the lack of teams from HL who may desire/can afford promotion is fairly small, especially in contrast to the LL. 

 

At the same time, both HL and LL champions deserve equal chances at promotion (and deserve promotion anyway for being champions). This could be one of the biggest hurdles in reconstruction 

[BFTD]

On 06/12/2023 at 20:19, EdinburghBlue said:

Various thoughts:

• While it may be the case that teams relegated in the next few years will struggle to return quickly, we will eventually settle down to a situation similar to England's and that in other pyramids where some teams will go back and forwards between different levels. So while I agree that some teams currently in tiers 2-4 will end up in the Highland/Lowland leagues (and even below), I don't think there is any reason to argue that they won't eventually be able return. Absent (temporary) rich backers, what inherent advantages to recent/prospective new arrivals in the SPFL have over (most of) the teams currently in the SPFL?
• I expect that we may see some reconstruction sometime in the next few years that will facilitate teams moving up/down. With it being clear that last year's Conference League proposals stand no chance of resurrection, I think there will be many club chairman who will now be more willing to consider automatic relegation, because the flipside will be automatic promotion. However, I think that Tier 4 needs to be much bigger than the current 10 if this is going to happen, particularly if there is going to be automatic promotion from the two tier 5 leagues.
• The teams that may find life outside the SPFL most difficult could be those outside the central belt, where player recruitment may become more difficult.
• Perhaps some of the teams wanting promotion to the SPFL should be careful what they wish for. Having looked at many clubs' accounts, it seems obvious that it's very difficult to run an SPFL club with the additional costs compared to the feeder leagues on (anything like) current gate levels. I've heard of one manager of a recently promoted club expressing private frustration that the expected additional budget for new players disappeared on the extra cost of running an SPFL club. Not every promoted club is going to have Sugar daddies like Kelty and Spartans.
• I also wonder how long the increased interest in the promoted clubs will last. Once they settle down to humdrum existence in the SPFL the hike in gates may well disappear.
• The point about the West league is interesting. Perhaps the issue isn't just that some clubs don't want promotion but that standards there aren't as high as some think, particularly with standards rising in the Lowland League.

I was going to mention that relegation from the Football League in England was assumed to be something of a one-way street when it first started, but it didn't necessarily end up that way because there was a real gulf in quality between Division Four and the Conference, which was primarily part-time. Now the Conference is mainly composed of former league clubs and everyone's full-time, so you might be gone for a while if you were struggling already, but it's not a big deal as there are plenty of similar-sized opponents to League Two.

It won't change here until there's more freedom of movement between the leagues, which is in everyone's interest, but the people running the game have proven they're only interested in how the pyramid structure can be used to help Celtgers, and they'll happily leave it to rot until everybody does what they're told. For all their faults, the Football League were smart enough to know that allowing Liverpool and Manchester United to hold everyone hostage was a dreadful idea.

[LongTimeLurker]

On 06/12/2023 at 21:52, Stag Nation said:

...The remaining ‘Junior’ outposts in the NE and ‘midlands’ will eventually see sense...

The remaining junior outposts are in the pyramid now, so what are they supposed to see sense about?