2426255 Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 (edited) Some peoples expectations aren't matching reality - worse than English fans. Edited June 25, 2021 by 2426255 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJF Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 Before I begin, I'd like to make it know that I think we should persist with Clarke as I think there have been signs of improvement, however, I fail to understand the argument that people are making that he shouldn't be replaced simply because they do not believe there is anyone else suitable available. Are there managers out there that are better than Steve Clarke? Yes. Are there managers out there that are better than Steve Clarke that would take the Scotland job? Most likely, yes. Just because someone on a football forum cannot convince you of an alternative candidate, doesn't mean we currently have the best person in charge. It's not our job to identify suitable candidates, that's up to the SFA, but that doesn't mean there aren't any out there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
accies1874 Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 Yeah I want him to stay too but never like the "who else is there?!" argument. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forameus Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 2 hours ago, 2426255 said: Some peoples expectations aren't matching reality - worse than English fans. It's a decent point to make actually. We take the piss endlessly about their fans bombast, yet there's elements of our support that are similarly deluded. I've seen quite a few comments that seem to contradict themselves too. Talking about how we should never have qualified anyway, only got there because we scraped through playoffs, then in the same breath talking about how we should have got through the group. If you're so desperate to be miserable that you're double-dipping on things to be angry about, even when they're polar opposites, might be time to think about whether the expectations were false. We were slightly disappointing in hindsight, but I'm not sure we massively underachieved. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forameus Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 1 hour ago, AJF said: Before I begin, I'd like to make it know that I think we should persist with Clarke as I think there have been signs of improvement, however, I fail to understand the argument that people are making that he shouldn't be replaced simply because they do not believe there is anyone else suitable available. Are there managers out there that are better than Steve Clarke? Yes. Are there managers out there that are better than Steve Clarke that would take the Scotland job? Most likely, yes. Just because someone on a football forum cannot convince you of an alternative candidate, doesn't mean we currently have the best person in charge. It's not our job to identify suitable candidates, that's up to the SFA, but that doesn't mean there aren't any out there. 1 hour ago, accies1874 said: Yeah I want him to stay too but never like the "who else is there?!" argument. To be fair, it's often not a case of "who else is there?!" and more a case of wondering who the SFA would believe is out there. Those two are very different things. If I thought that the SFA were remotely likely to widen their net larger than "Nationality = Scottish" then I'd be far more confident. Maybe I'd be surprised, but if I'm right, then I think asking who else there is for the narrow parameters they're using is a good question to ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanMc99 Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 Just now, forameus said: To be fair, it's often not a case of "who else is there?!" and more a case of wondering who the SFA would believe is out there. Those two are very different things. If I thought that the SFA were remotely likely to widen their net larger than "Nationality = Scottish" then I'd be far more confident. Maybe I'd be surprised, but if I'm right, then I think asking who else there is for the narrow parameters they're using is a good question to ask. I think one of the issues as well is , do we want to sack a manager each time there is some sort of failure, there has been improvements under clarke, but as we all have seen he is sometimes too cautious. I feel starting again with a new manager is more risky because we may have to go through that transition again of getting used to a new system and a managers ideas. would give clarke this campaign and if no improvements its time to move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Bing Posted June 25, 2021 Author Share Posted June 25, 2021 Just now, forameus said: It's a decent point to make actually. We take the piss endlessly about their fans bombast, yet there's elements of our support that are similarly deluded. I've seen quite a few comments that seem to contradict themselves too. Talking about how we should never have qualified anyway, only got there because we scraped through playoffs, then in the same breath talking about how we should have got through the group. If you're so desperate to be miserable that you're double-dipping on things to be angry about, even when they're polar opposites, might be time to think about whether the expectations were false. We were slightly disappointing in hindsight, but I'm not sure we massively underachieved. Its not really, English fans think they should automatically be winning tournaments. Some Scottish fans think we should be be picking up more than zero points with 2 home games. Also I've heard alot of emotional defenses of Clarke but very few factual ones. In 10 pages nobody had attempted to defend Clarke's reluctance to change things in the Croatia game. He just sat there and watched the game and the tournament slip away, yet did nothing until it was all over. At time Clarke teams can look good, defensively organised and pressing well as a unit. He just lacks on the game management side. Clarke would be good as coach staying on under another manager. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No_Problemo Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 22 minutes ago, BingMcCrosby said: Its not really, English fans think they should automatically be winning tournaments. Some Scottish fans think we should be be picking up more than zero points with 2 home games. Also I've heard alot of emotional defenses of Clarke but very few factual ones. In 10 pages nobody had attempted to defend Clarke's reluctance to change things in the Croatia game. He just sat there and watched the game and the tournament slip away, yet did nothing until it was all over. At time Clarke teams can look good, defensively organised and pressing well as a unit. He just lacks on the game management side. Clarke would be good as coach staying on under another manager. There isn’t really any defence of Clarke’s inability to change things against Croatia, and to a lesser extent Czech Republic. Doesn’t mean he should be sacked though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanMc99 Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 25 minutes ago, BingMcCrosby said: Its not really, English fans think they should automatically be winning tournaments. Some Scottish fans think we should be be picking up more than zero points with 2 home games. Also I've heard alot of emotional defenses of Clarke but very few factual ones. In 10 pages nobody had attempted to defend Clarke's reluctance to change things in the Croatia game. He just sat there and watched the game and the tournament slip away, yet did nothing until it was all over. At time Clarke teams can look good, defensively organised and pressing well as a unit. He just lacks on the game management side. Clarke would be good as coach staying on under another manager. he absolutely made a meal of the first game, got it spot on in the second game. the third he could have done better in changing it but we were always up against it with their know how in big games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Bing Posted June 25, 2021 Author Share Posted June 25, 2021 Just now, DanMc99 said: he absolutely made a meal of the first game, got it spot on in the second game. the third he could have done better in changing it but we were always up against it with their know how in big games. Yeah their experience counted when it mattered. I felt it wasn't necessarily a tacticle change we needed. We just needed the fresh legs. There was like for like swaps that may have given us the impetus to get back in the game again. I dont like the thought of us being in this type of position again and the manager just sitting for 30 mins wondering what to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2426255 Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 (edited) We don't know Steve Clarkes decision making process or all the information, but we have seen examples of success in Steve Clarkes in game management recently. The change of shape against Israel at half time helped the team and also in the game against Austria at Hampden the midfield box was adjusted in the first half to gain more control of the game. I haven't re-watched the game yet so I can't say for certain - but I'm sure he didn't just sit and watch. The frustrations are based mainly on the disappointment of the result. If England had scored late on, we would have to endure moans about Steve Clarke only using two substitutes. Edited June 25, 2021 by 2426255 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanMc99 Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 1 minute ago, BingMcCrosby said: Yeah their experience counted when it mattered. I felt it wasn't necessarily a tacticle change we needed. We just needed the fresh legs. There was like for like swaps that may have given us the impetus to get back in the game again. I dont like the thought of us being in this type of position again and the manager just sitting for 30 mins wondering what to do. i agree he left it too late to change. we had to get a goal and he was slow in making that change. i'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt when he said there is lessons to be learned "coach inlcluded", i think he's honest enough to realise going into a home game on the first day of a major tournament and approach them the way he did was a massive mistake , it was almost as if he took the momentum away before the game started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 4 hours ago, 2426255 said: Some peoples expectations aren't matching reality - worse than English fans. Why yes. I'm all about high expectations and vaulting optimism, me. Good point ya walloper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 1 hour ago, forameus said: It's a decent point to make actually. We take the piss endlessly about their fans bombast, yet there's elements of our support that are similarly deluded. I've seen quite a few comments that seem to contradict themselves too. It's not a remotely good point. There is no inconsistency required in fearing we might not perform, then being pissed off when that failure is indeed duly delivered. You don't need to have been looking forward to the open top bus, in order to feel let down by what transpired. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2426255 Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 (edited) But we did perform, exactly to expectations - which is failure ultimately. Why can't you accept that? We entered via the playoffs, we're building the team over time and hopefully we can do better next time. How can you be let down, if you expected us to fail? Edited June 25, 2021 by 2426255 -1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkey Tennis Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 4 hours ago, Gordopolis said: Disappointed as I am at our Euros performance and exit, I don't think - objectively speaking - we flopped. To the outsider, we lost against Czech and Croatia as expected, with the former being a pretty close fight and the latter hardly a humiliation, and we impressively held the top seeds to a draw on their patch. Yes 1 goal and 1 point seems grim. We definitely didn't punch through the ceiling as we hoped we might, but nobody outwith the Scotland support is lamenting our performance as sub-par. Sorry but it was a poor tournament performance. There's really no getting away from the stats you acknowledge as "grim". To lose both Hampden games by two goals was much worse than we had a right to hope for, with Wembley probably a bit better. I'm not screaming for Clarke's head at all - I think we should stick with him. We don't need to pretend, however, that what just happened wasn't disappointing in the extreme. Once more, it's perfectly possible to have a pretty decent grasp of our standing, yet feel disenchanted by what we delivered at the Euros. The suggestion otherwise is getting on my nerves. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Bing Posted June 25, 2021 Author Share Posted June 25, 2021 Just now, 2426255 said: But we did perform, exactly to expectations - which is failure ultimately. Why can't you accept that? We entered via the playoffs, we're building the team over time and hopefully we can do better next time. How can you be let down, if you expected us to fail? Possibly to your expectations, but not everyones. I dont think were expected to lose at home against the Czechs at all. Its also not about building a team for the future, its a major tournament. If were looking at next time then that could be 23 years away, when all the current squad have retired. Its about performing as best as we can in the here and now, we never did that. Its not a training camp for managers and players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanMc99 Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said: Sorry but it was a poor tournament performance. There's really no getting away from the stats you acknowledge as "grim". To lose both Hampden games by two goals was much worse than we had a right to hope for, with Wembley probably a bit better. I'm not screaming for Clarke's head at all - I think we should stick with him. We don't need to pretend, however, that what just happened wasn't disappointing in the extreme. Once more, it's perfectly possible to have a pretty decent grasp of our standing, yet feel disenchanted by what we delivered at the Euros. The suggestion otherwise is getting on my nerves. I think its too simplistic to say we lost two games at home and thats a reason we underperformed. the first game was the game that really deserves proper scrutiny , the czechs are not great but a decent outfit, we started too negatively and were wasteful. we were good against england and thoroughly deserved a point if not more. the 3rd game we go in needing a victory against the world cup finalists with modric, kovacic and brozovic, real , chelsea and inter respectively. we were beat by a better team, i don't think croatia beating us is a great shock or somehow underperforming or underachieving. the first game though, kills momentum and heaps pressure on the two hardest games on paper. Edited June 25, 2021 by DanMc99 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArabFC Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 2 minutes ago, DanMc99 said: I think its too simplistic to say we lost two games at home and thats a reason we underperformed. the first game was the game that really deserves proper scrutiny , the czechs are not great but a decent outfit, we started too negatively and were wasteful. we were good against england and thoroughly deserved a point if not more. Wasteful? Yes. Negative? We had 19 shots at goal! For some context, when we pumped the Faroes 4-0, we had 12 shots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanMc99 Posted June 25, 2021 Share Posted June 25, 2021 1 minute ago, ArabFC said: Wasteful? Yes. Negative? We had 19 shots at goal! For some context, when we pumped the Faroes 4-0, we had 12 shots. the approach was negative in the first game and when we had chances we were wasteful. adams should of started. -1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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