Time to go Steve Clarke

[BFTD]

4 hours ago, SuperSaints1877 said:

Did we not do that with Bertie Vogts?

I don't think they had to get outside funding for him. Despite winning Euro 96, I remember reading at the time that he was never very popular in Germany, and I don't think people were really queueing up for his services. The main reason he seemed to get the job was because he was mates with Craig Brown, who recommended him when he was leaving.

Despite how painful Berti's reign was, it would be interesting to peek into a timeline where he got an extended period in the job to see if we improved. He really did have next to nothing to work with at the start.

[Theroadlesstravelled]

4 hours ago, 2426255 said:

This is what Steve Clarke said in the Guardian. I agree fully with it.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/jun/04/steve-clarke-knows-euro-2024-failure-kill-scotland-world-cup-dream-football

Ah we didn’t play well. Groundbreaking tactical analysis from Clarke.

 

[German Jag]

17 minutes ago, BFTD said:

I don't think they had to get outside funding for him. Despite winning Euro 96, I remember reading at the time that he was never very popular in Germany, and I don't think people were really queueing up for his services. The main reason he seemed to get the job was because he was mates with Craig Brown, who recommended him when he was leaving.

Despite how painful Berti's reign was, it would be interesting to peek into a timeline where he got an extended period in the job to see if we improved. He really did have next to nothing to work with at the start.

In Germany, Vogts is well respected as a player. As a manager he‘s considered to be fairly useless, and that the win st Euro 96 is despite him and not because of him. 

[Lex]

11 minutes ago, BFTD said:

I don't think they had to get outside funding for him. Despite winning Euro 96, I remember reading at the time that he was never very popular in Germany, and I don't think people were really queueing up for his services. The main reason he seemed to get the job was because he was mates with Craig Brown, who recommended him when he was leaving.

Despite how painful Berti's reign was, it would be interesting to peek into a timeline where he got an extended period in the job to see if we improved. He really did have next to nothing to work with at the start.

He was the most successful manager between Brown and Clarke. He got us to a playoff after all, and we even won the first leg of it. 

[BFTD]

Just now, Lex said:

He was the most successful manager between Brown and Clarke. He got us to a playoff after all, and we even won the first leg of it. 

Aye, so people keep saying.

I'll give him the 1-0 win against the Dutch - WTF was going on there - but literally any of the managers we've had since could've got us through that group. We hadn't slipped down the rankings yet and had to finish above the Faroes, Lithuania, and a still-dugshite Iceland. We can only dream of those kinds of groups now!

[John Lambies Doos]

I suppose we've no idea if he views managing his national side as a goal in itself, or if it's a stepping stone to a better job in club management, like...certain other BIGOTED managers we've had.

Ftfy

[BFTD]

Malky was only in cherge for one game, thankfully.

Wait, are you saying that Ross County is a bigger job than the national team?  

[Bing.McCrosby]

3 hours ago, BFTD said:

Aye, so people keep saying.

I'll give him the 1-0 win against the Dutch - WTF was going on there - but literally any of the managers we've had since could've got us through that group. We hadn't slipped down the rankings yet and had to finish above the Faroes, Lithuania, and a still-dugshite Iceland. We can only dream of those kinds of groups now!

I cant actually remember the group but its irrelevant. If we had a time machine to test this out I'd happily wager a decent amount that Craig Levein would have found a way to not get us out the group.

[Binos]

4 minutes ago, BingMcCrosby said:

I cant actually remember the group but its irrelevant. If we had a time machine to test this out I'd happily wager a decent amount that Craig Levein would have found a way to not get us out the group.

George Burley 

[Binos]

Just now, Binos said:

George Burley 

Big Eck, the second coming 

[HuttonDressedAsLahm]

4 hours ago, BFTD said:

I don't think they had to get outside funding for him. Despite winning Euro 96, I remember reading at the time that he was never very popular in Germany, and I don't think people were really queueing up for his services. The main reason he seemed to get the job was because he was mates with Craig Brown, who recommended him when he was leaving.

Despite how painful Berti's reign was, it would be interesting to peek into a timeline where he got an extended period in the job to see if we improved. He really did have next to nothing to work with at the start.

I may be recalling this incorrectly, but I believe Vogts had to re-instate youth sides below the u21s.  We were quite the backward state back then, and the shocking lack of quality players Vogts had to work with wasn't his fault.  It's quite possible that it took 10 years from his appointment for us to make any decent progress in the coaching and training of young players.  Whether that's simply coincidental, I wouldn't know.

We did after all qualify in 2008 for the U17 final, and then not again until four consecutive qualifications in 2014-2017.  Rebuilding after the Brown era, with the excepted blip in 2007, took until Strachan before we had anything resembling a competitive team.

Whilst we benefited from poor quality groups in the early 2000s (and we were a 1st seed for the group including Belgium and Croatia) we really had almost nothing to work with.  Klopp (or insert other world class coach) would have struggled to get a tune of some of those sides we had.

[Londonwell]

4 hours ago, BFTD said:

Aye, so people keep saying.

I'll give him the 1-0 win against the Dutch - WTF was going on there - but literally any of the managers we've had since could've got us through that group. We hadn't slipped down the rankings yet and had to finish above the Faroes, Lithuania, and a still-dugshite Iceland. We can only dream of those kinds of groups now!

Plus that Germany team was absolutely rotten by their usual standards. Half way competent side would of been in with a shout of automatic qualification. 

The first leg of the play off, as a Faddy mark, is one of my favourite games that I’ve ever attended but it was a freak result, that we didn’t really deserve. 2nd leg proved that, I suppose.

Edited June 6, 2022 by Londonwell

[craigkillie]

29 minutes ago, HuttonDressedAsLahm said:

I may be recalling this incorrectly, but I believe Vogts had to re-instate youth sides below the u21s.  We were quite the backward state back then, and the shocking lack of quality players Vogts had to work with wasn't his fault.  It's quite possible that it took 10 years from his appointment for us to make any decent progress in the coaching and training of young players.  Whether that's simply coincidental, I wouldn't know.

We did after all qualify in 2008 for the U17 final, and then not again until four consecutive qualifications in 2014-2017.  Rebuilding after the Brown era, with the excepted blip in 2007, took until Strachan before we had anything resembling a competitive team.

Whilst we benefited from poor quality groups in the early 2000s (and we were a 1st seed for the group including Belgium and Croatia) we really had almost nothing to work with.  Klopp (or insert other world class coach) would have struggled to get a tune of some of those sides we had.

 

We certainly didn't stop having teams at any sort of youth level, so I'm not sure where that idea came from. We have always entered the UEFA U17 and U19 competitions.

The quality and age profile of the squad that Vogts inherited is always overstated as a problem. He had a decent enough core of players, but rather than trying to gradually evolve he basically just tried to chuck caps at every player under the sun and thus lost any sense of continuity. He always seems to get credit for stuff like giving debuts to Gordon, Fletcher and McFadden, as though other managers might have somehow ignored top level talent like that.

He had OK goalkeepers in Neil Sullivan (32) and Rab Douglas (29).

He had good Premier League centre-backs in David Weir (31) and Christian Dailly (28). Gary Naysmith (23) was a first-team player Everton and Callum Davidson (25) was also playing in the top flight with Leicester. Jackie McNamara (28) was a first choice in a very good Celtic team.

In midfield, Barry Ferguson (24) was already a standout, albeit wasn't always available for Scotland. Paul Lambert (32) was still a regular at Celtic, and would continue to be for a couple of years, while Colin Cameron (29) and Neil McCann (27) were more or less at their peak.

There was a wee bit of a lack of quality up front, but we did still have Don Hutchison (31) and Scott Booth (30) who were still playing at a good level. James McFadden (19) and Garry O'Connor (18) were also already breaking through at this point.

[rainbowrising]

9 hours ago, HuttonDressedAsLahm said:

I may be recalling this incorrectly, but I believe Vogts had to re-instate youth sides below the u21s.  We were quite the backward state back then, and the shocking lack of quality players Vogts had to work with wasn't his fault.  It's quite possible that it took 10 years from his appointment for us to make any decent progress in the coaching and training of young players.  Whether that's simply coincidental, I wouldn't know.

We did after all qualify in 2008 for the U17 final, and then not again until four consecutive qualifications in 2014-2017.  Rebuilding after the Brown era, with the excepted blip in 2007, took until Strachan before we had anything resembling a competitive team.

Whilst we benefited from poor quality groups in the early 2000s (and we were a 1st seed for the group including Belgium and Croatia) we really had almost nothing to work with.  Klopp (or insert other world class coach) would have struggled to get a tune of some of those sides we had.

Yep. Vogts was the perfect storm - a manager seriously lacking and in charge of a dreadful squad of players. We were in meltdown back then.

[BFTD]

9 hours ago, Londonwell said:

Plus that Germany team was absolutely rotten by their usual standards. Half way competent side would of been in with a shout of automatic qualification. 

The first leg of the play off, as a Faddy mark, is one of my favourite games that I’ve ever attended but it was a freak result, that we didn’t really deserve. 2nd leg proved that, I suppose.

Aye, they still weren't a lot better than during that miserable Euro 2000, and also struggled against some of our group mates.

Also, they were CHEATS! FUCKIN' CHEATS!

8 hours ago, craigkillie said:

The quality and age profile of the squad that Vogts inherited is always overstated as a problem.

Aye, I guess that's fair. I suppose he either really didn't know much about what we had available when he took over, or panicked and hoped he'd manage to unearth some stars like Darlington loanee Kevin Kyle  

[2426255]

Just to add a little more fuel to the fire. Kenny Macintyre (clearly inspired by a recent sportsound discussion) asking Steven Naismith why Steve Clarke didn't change things in the first half against Ukraine when things were clearly going against us.

Quote

Steven I’ve heard a lot about what the players didn’t do on Wednesday night. I haven’t heard so much about why the manager didn’t change things in the first half when clearly it wasn’t working, what were your thoughts on that?

There was a lot done before the game on how we wanted to play and I think as a group we still felt that if we could get our foot on the ball and pick the right pass then we would’ve got success. I’ve seen it a lot of times where you do go and change something very quickly and then you’re totally out of the game. When we go in at half time 1-nil you’re still in the game. There has still got to be small changes to get a foothold and then effectively start to cause Ukraine more problems.

Losing that quick goal, which again wasn’t great from our point of view, nothing to do with systems or anything like that, then you’re on the backfoot and you’re at a time where you’ve got to come out. There’s been previous games where picking the right time to change it is really important, but like I said if you make changes early enough and it doesn’t work out then you’re totally out of the tie.

How concerned were you though? Watching you at the games it’s obviously your job to go down and watch, go down and liase with the manager. How concerned were you in that first half because we did concede several chances? Craig Gordon kept us in it with a couple of terrific saves

Yeah, I think for us the concern was how easily they got through us more than anything else and that’s a trait I would say that’s been really good with this squad. In a lot of games in the past we’ve been solid. We maybe didn’t pick and choose the right times when we were going to press and break shape – That caused us problems.

Throughout the full game as staff to the manager we’ve constantly just gone to bring him what we see and the manager will make the call. I think it’s hard for any one individual to watch a game and start seeing everything that’s happening. The manager’s very controlled in everything that he does, that’s got us a lot of good results in the past, so I think overall, all round it just wasn’t good enough on the night.    

Steven Naismith in response to Kenny Mcintyre

https://youtu.be/odhz7zM-77s?t=126

The response doesn't give great insight and I'm sure some will find it unsatisfactory but the reasoning is centered around believing the current strategy could still be successful with a few tweaks, making drastic changes too early could have a negative outcome and a bit of 'I don't know, I just work here - you'd have to ask my supervisor' .

[SpoonTon]

2 hours ago, BFTD said:

 

Aye, I guess that's fair. I suppose he either really didn't know much about what we had available when he took over, or panicked and hoped he'd manage to unearth some stars like Darlington loanee Kevin Kyle  

James McFadden didn't make his competitive debut for Scotland until after he moved to Everton, and you still get people who defend Vogts for being brave enough to give young players a chance. The bottom line with Vogts is that he just got far too many judgements wrong. 

As said above, the likes of McNamara, Naysmith, Weir, Lambert, Ferguson, Dailly, and Cameron were all established players at the time, with McFadden, Miller, Fletcher, and Gordon all breaking through around that time. It wasn't a particularly terrible time to be Scotland manager (relative to what was to come, anyway). I mean, Vogts once experimented with Christian Dailly on the left wing  - he wanted to try different things, but his experiments didn't work and weren't really needed. He failed to initially pick out the best of the young players coming through, that's why we got Kyle and not McFadden (and a whole host of other young players who weren't good enough). 

[Ken Deans]

On 05/06/2022 at 21:51, RandomGuy. said:

I'll continue calling people who throw a hissy fit and demand resignations after a poor result children, thanks.

Bing has a point. I've been going to games since the 70s and had not unrealistic ambitions given the vast improvement in the squad in recent years. My hissy fit has lasted since the Czech opener. By the way the thread is called Time to go Steve Clark. Wtf did you expect to see?

[BFTD]

2 hours ago, Ken Deans said:

Bing has a point. I've been going to games since the 70s and had not unrealistic ambitions given the vast improvement in the squad in recent years. My hissy fit has lasted since the Czech opener. By the way the thread is called Time to go Steve Clark. Wtf did you expect to see?

People going Steve Clarke.

[Ken Deans]

35 minutes ago, BFTD said:

People going Steve Clarke.

You're funny