Austria v Scotland

[The Moonster]

1 minute ago, Skyline Drifter said:

It's relevant because I didn't know who he was. Not sure why that needs to be considered any more deeply than that?

It's not that big a surprise given he appears to have a total of 3 League starts to his name in his entire career, all in the last month. I've never seen him play. I'm not making any judgements given that I haven't seen him but it's quite remarkable that people are suggesting he should be in the Scotland squad off the back of it.

Why do you personally need to know who he is for him to get a call up? Your ignorance (deliberate or blissful) isn't relevant to Steve Clarke picking his best team. He's played well more than 3 games for Aberdeen - he's played more games for Aberdeen than Patterson has for Rangers this year and Ramsay played for Aberdeen last year at 17. I've watched 3 games that Ramsay has been involved in and he's arguably been their best player - he's always involved in attack and clearly doesn't lack confidence given they put him in charge of set pieces. He's not long turned 18 and looks well ahead of his years. It's bizarre you want to make a judgement on his international prospects without having seen him play - you say "he's only started 3 of Aberdeens league games" but they've only played 4 in total

It's not the end of the world, Ramsay has time on his side but I don't see much value in sitting McGinn on the bench if we could give Ramsay the same experience. 

[craigkillie]

If it's just about sitting on the bench for the senior then sure Ramsay will learn more playing for the U21s tomorrow? It would be different if he was going to actually play. I actually think he has a lot more about him as an all-round full-back than Patterson, who I think is talented but hugely overrated at the same time.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

If it's just about sitting on the bench for the senior then sure Ramsay will learn more playing for the U21s tomorrow? It would be different if he was going to actually play. I actually think he has a lot more about him as an all-round full-back than Patterson, who I think is talented but hugely overrated at the same time.

From the little I've seen of Ramsay he's got an excellent delivery from the wing and also dead balls, long way to go of course but certainly looks like a star of the future.

Edited September 6, 2021 by WATTOO

[Melanius Mullarkey]

A Scotland supporter from the borders doesn’t know who one our countries promising prospects is despite playing regularly for his club in Scotlands top flight and has recently been the subject of debate about whether he should be in the 19s or 21s setup? 
 

Hopefully Steve Clarke is reading this and taking notes.

[lubo_blaha]

It's relevant because I didn't know who he was. Not sure why that needs to be considered any more deeply than that?
It's not that big a surprise given he appears to have a total of 3 League starts to his name in his entire career, all in the last month. I've never seen him play. I'm not making any judgements given that I haven't seen him but it's quite remarkable that people are suggesting he should be in the Scotland squad off the back of it.

He’s played the same number of first team games as the guy who started our last game at rwb.

[Jambomo]

22 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

If it's just about sitting on the bench for the senior then sure Ramsay will learn more playing for the U21s tomorrow? It would be different if he was going to actually play. I actually think he has a lot more about him as an all-round full-back than Patterson, who I think is talented but hugely overrated at the same time.

Agreed, I don’t think you take him out of an u21 game to sit in the bench against Austria. I expect he’ll be called up in the future but no point in doing it for this match.

[The Moonster]

25 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

If it's just about sitting on the bench for the senior then sure Ramsay will learn more playing for the U21s tomorrow? It would be different if he was going to actually play. I actually think he has a lot more about him as an all-round full-back than Patterson, who I think is talented but hugely overrated at the same time.

What's he going to learn playing kids football for Scot fucking Gemmell when he's already a senior player playing men every week? 

If O'Donnell gets injured he'd play - that after all is why we've called up Paul McGinn. If it was certain they wouldn't play we wouldn't call them up. He and Patterson are the two most likely players to take that RB/RWB berth in future. Paul McGinn will likely never see another squad again. As I've said, it's not the end of the world I just think it's a pointless exercise getting McGinn involved. And I say that as someone who loves Paul McGinn. 

[Skyline Drifter]

23 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

Why do you personally need to know who he is for him to get a call up? Your ignorance (deliberate or blissful) isn't relevant to Steve Clarke picking his best team. He's played well more than 3 games for Aberdeen - he's played more games for Aberdeen than Patterson has for Rangers this year and Ramsay played for Aberdeen last year at 17. I've watched 3 games that Ramsay has been involved in and he's arguably been their best player - he's always involved in attack and clearly doesn't lack confidence given they put him in charge of set pieces. He's not long turned 18 and looks well ahead of his years. It's bizarre you want to make a judgement on his international prospects without having seen him play - you say "he's only started 3 of Aberdeens league games" but they've only played 4 in total

It's not the end of the world, Ramsay has time on his side but I don't see much value in sitting McGinn on the bench if we could give Ramsay the same experience. 

Don't be ridiculous. I don't personally need to know who he is for him to get a call up and I never suggested I did. What is "deliberate ignorance" as a matter of interest? I genuinely had no idea who he was or who he played for when his name was mentioned on this thread first. I also made it clear that in itself doesn't mean he's not good enough.

I said he's made three league starts for Aberdeen. Which he has. And a handful more subs and a couple of European ones. You know Aberdeen existed before this season right? They played League games last season too. He didn't (well he came on as a sub a couple of times). The only matches he started last season were against you and Dundee United in the Scottish Cup. They've lost more games than they've won with him in the team. Not that this means it's his fault of course.

At the end of the day we're a Stephen O'Donnell injury away from whoever is in the squad starting, not taking guys away for a wee bit of experience in a squad. I haven't got a clue whether McGinn or Ramsay is a better option in that case (not having seen the latter play) but the manager should take whichever one he thinks could do a better job tomorrow, not the one that may be our first choice in a year or two. Maybe that should be Ramsay. I've no idea. Or maybe as others have suggested, McGinn was available, fully vaccinated and able to travel more easily at a drop of the hat than Ramsay is.

[The Moonster]

1 minute ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Don't be ridiculous. I don't personally need to know who he is for him to get a call up and I never suggested I did. What is "deliberate ignorance" as a matter of interest? I genuinely had no idea who he was or who he played for when his name was mentioned on this thread first. I also made it clear that in itself doesn't mean he's not good enough.

I said he's made three league starts for Aberdeen. Which he has. And a handful more subs and a couple of European ones. You know Aberdeen existed before this season right? They played League games last season too. He didn't (well he came on as a sub a couple of times). The only matches he started last season were against you and Dundee United in the Scottish Cup. They've lost more games than they've won with him in the team. Not that this means it's his fault of course.

At the end of the day we're a Stephen O'Donnell injury away from whoever is in the squad starting, not taking guys away for a wee bit of experience in a squad. I haven't got a clue whether McGinn or Ramsay is a better option in that case (not having seen the latter play) but the manager should take whichever one he thinks could do a better job tomorrow, not the one that may be our first choice in a year or two. Maybe that should be Ramsay. I've no idea. Or maybe as others have suggested, McGinn was available, fully vaccinated and able to travel more easily at a drop of the hat than Ramsay is.

Yes, Aberdeen existed before this season, hence why I mentioned that he played for them last season as a 17 year old. You're awfy good at throwing up utterly irrelevant things in debates eh? Not only is your ignorance irrelevant but so is "they've lost more games than they've won with him in the team". Insert Partridge shrugging shoulders gif here. You're actually having a pop at him for not starting more games in the Scottish Premiership at 17 years old. If he's better than the other options right now then it doesn't matter how many games he played last season. 

I accept that the manager has to take who he thinks will do the best job tomorrow - I just disagree with him that Paul McGinn is that guy. Ramsay is testing and travelling with the U21s so could've easily been added to the squad. The U21s are also a huge waste of time, who actually gives a f**k if they do/don't qualify?

[accies1874]

Could just be that he's tried to get players for other positions as well.

That's what I thought too. We definitely had a striker at the Oriam last week but I'm not sure why that didn't materialise (maybe another player pulled through an injury or it was just a coincidence). I wouldn't be surprised if Clarke had failed to get another full-back and forward too.

[2426255]

2 minutes ago, accies1874 said:

 

 

That's what I thought too. We definitely had a striker at the Oriam last week but I'm not sure why that didn't materialise (maybe another player pulled through an injury or it was just a coincidence). I wouldn't be surprised if Clarke had failed to get another full-back and forward too.

 

Do you know what striker it was? I had meant to ask you previously.

[TheScarf]

33 minutes ago, accies1874 said:

 

 

That's what I thought too. We definitely had a striker at the Oriam last week but I'm not sure why that didn't materialise (maybe another player pulled through an injury or it was just a coincidence). I wouldn't be surprised if Clarke had failed to get another full-back and forward too.

 

 

29 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

Do you know what striker it was? I had meant to ask you previously.

Trialist IMO.

[Scotty Tunbridge]

45 minutes ago, accies1874 said:

 

 

That's what I thought too. We definitely had a striker at the Oriam last week but I'm not sure why that didn't materialise (maybe another player pulled through an injury or it was just a coincidence). I wouldn't be surprised if Clarke had failed to get another full-back and forward too.

 

 

42 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

Do you know what striker it was? I had meant to ask you previously.

I heard it was Karlan Grant of WBA, but he decided not to fully commit as of yet.

[accies1874]

Do you know what striker it was? I had meant to ask you previously.

Leigh Griffiths. I wish I was kidding.

[2426255]

4 minutes ago, accies1874 said:

55 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

Do you know what striker it was? I had meant to ask you previously.

Leigh Griffiths. I wish I was kidding.

No chance, probably just a fluke that he was at the Oriam at the same time.

[HuttonDressedAsLahm]

3 hours ago, Jamie_Beatson said:

Ramsay shouldn’t be getting bumped up to the full squad for the same reason Patterson pretty much shouldn’t be starting games for us - neither have played nearly enough first team football to merit it and/or be at the level required yet. Scotland need to do much better at getting young talent into squads earlier  - but chucking in guys with a handful of professional appearances might be too far the opposite direction.

I’ve never seen Ramsay so I could be completely wrong about him- but Patterson is defensively very naive and really needs a full season playing at a good level at this stage to develop his positional sense and how to defend against at good players. Even against poor Moldovan players on Saturday he made the wrong choice repeatedly. That moment in the first half where he chopped the guy down on the right edge of the box was a prime example - totally needless. Bundles of talent and good driving forward in the first half in particular but I would have been concerned about him playing against superior (to Moldova) opposition tomorrow.

With a bit of luck both of the above players will get enough game time this season to make them mainstays of the team for the next decade. I’m sure Ramsay will because he won’t have as much competition for his place at Aberdeen. I’m not convinced Patterson will dislodge Tavernier this season and I really wish he’d got a loan out somewhere this season. He’s not going to develop his game sitting on Rangers bench and playing cup games. I can see him getting Sunday games after European ties if Rangers are playing relegation threatened sides but I suspect Gerrard will still want Tavernier against the better teams in the league.

This is first rate nonsense.  Ethan Ampadu has 27 caps for Wales at the age of 20.  He had 13 caps whilst having played 12 senior games for Chelsea. 

We continuously fail to give youth a chance, even when it was so very obvious that they were capable.  How Gilmour is capable of playing Champions League football, and bossing a strong Liverpool team, but only good enough for Scotland, Scotland!, u21s shows exactly what we are.

Nobody is making out Patterson to be the next Cafu or Zambrotta, but he's quite some bit better than SOD, Paterson, and any number of other available right backs. Young players make mistakes, whether they are playing 40 games a season, or 10.  Patterson is demonstrably the best right back we have but it is possible to recognise that and still think that SOD should start against Denmark and Austria.

That noted, we threw in SOD against Peru and Mexico with zero international experience and having not long finished played for Luton Town.  I'd politely suggest that playing 80 games against Carlisle doesn't provide much in the way of preparation for international football. 

Edited September 6, 2021 by HuttonDressedAsLahm

[oneteaminglasgow]

I probably wouldn’t be using Ethan Ampadu as your shining example, since he’s fucking shite. 

[BFTD]

15 minutes ago, HuttonDressedAsLahm said:

I'd politely suggest that playing 80 games against Carlisle doesn't provide much in the way of preparation for international football. 

That's a fair point.

Vale of Lethem and some University sides, however...

[HuttonDressedAsLahm]

3 minutes ago, BFTD said:

That's a fair point.

Vale of Lethem and some University sides, however...

Is Patterson playing for the Colts team?

 

8 minutes ago, oneteaminglasgow said:

I probably wouldn’t be using Ethan Ampadu as your shining example, since he’s fucking shite. 

Maybe. But they have a midfield of Swindon and Portsmouth players, and they qualify and we don't.

[BFTD]

Just now, HuttonDressedAsLahm said:

Is Patterson playing for the Colts team?

No, I just couldn't pass up the opportunity to take the piss out of the concept that games in the Lowland League will bring on our bright young stars of the future.

Carry on.