The Gender Debate

[andyg83]

Just now, virginton said:

Yep, the left has set up a circular firing squad over completely marginal, not even in the top 1000 priority category of identity issues, while wondering how the right continues to widens the wealth gap and gets support for it by not sounding *quite* as totally fucking demented and incapable of two-sided discourse as the identity warriors. 

The exception proving the rule here incidentally being the US right's overreach on abortion rights, which cost them support in the midterms. 

Great post.]

[andyg83]

1 minute ago, carpetmonster said:

The roasters are trying to sow moral panic and aren’t particularly arsed about facts so long as they frighten people. Chris Rufo freely admits it. It’s very profitable 

Yeah,  a definite roaster but the underlying point is valid. Why do we need Drag Queens in Schools? I don't think it's really appropriate to be honest

That is not a hill I would be willing to die on and it concedes the moral high ground (for want if a better expression) to the right.

[carpetmonster]

Just now, andyg83 said:

Yeah,  a definite roaster but the underlying point is valid. Why do we need Drag Queens in Schools? I don't think it's really appropriate to be honest

That is not a hill I would be willing to die on and it concedes the moral high ground (for want if a better expression) to the right.

As a parent of an American schoolchild - who’s district also has the policy of not outing LGBTQ+ kids that the Tories seem to want to do away with in Blighty - I can confirm there have been no drag queens in my kid’s school. She is quite familiar with drag queens, having spent her early years in Miami and seen the brunch shows along Ocean Drive. She has at no point questioned her gender, to date. 

[vikingTON]

10 minutes ago, carpetmonster said:

Haven’t read it m9. Because when I’m looking at an issue, I don’t tend to take the hard right’s position into things. Your man Andy’s busy saying Matt Walsh ‘is a roaster but has some good points’ - when someone describes themselves as a ‘theocratic fascist’ I’m pretty much out at that stage. If you want to tell me why I’m wrong in that…well, I’m not that arsed really. 

Once again you fail to play the ball and keep targeting something - anything - that avoids you confronting the underpinning evidence. Most people grow out of your attitude after the age of 15, if supplemented by a basic level of critical thinking education.

Let's try a slightly different, remedial approach:

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/feb/19/time-to-think-by-hannah-barnes-review-what-went-wrong-at-gids

Which of the underlying facts in this clearly far right article do you contest? Not the commentary, not the opinion - the actual statistical evidence of which groups of children are presenting with gender dysphoria in the current social context. 

[carpetmonster]

11 minutes ago, virginton said:

Once again you fail to play the ball and keep targeting something - anything - that avoids you confronting the underpinning evidence. Most people grow out of your attitude after the age of 15, if supplemented by a basic level of critical thinking education.

Let's try a slightly different, remedial approach:

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/feb/19/time-to-think-by-hannah-barnes-review-what-went-wrong-at-gids

Which of the underlying facts in this clearly far right article do you contest? Not the commentary, not the opinion - the actual statistical evidence of which groups of children are presenting with gender dysphoria in the current social context. 

Most people stop stamping their feet and insisting that they're right by the time they're 7. Why do you keep saying I must give credence to a notorious transphobe like Hannah Barnes and issue wee red dots for pointing out Chris Rufo - Manhattan Institute - freely admits he's trying to frighten thick c***s? Has it struck a nerve?

 

ETA - the Tavistock had plenty failings. That's why it's to be - or asserted to be - replaced by regional centres more up to the task. 

Edited April 26, 2023 by carpetmonster

[andyg83]

16 minutes ago, carpetmonster said:

As a parent of an American schoolchild - who’s district also has the policy of not outing LGBTQ+ kids that the Tories seem to want to do away with in Blighty - I can confirm there have been no drag queens in my kid’s school. She is quite familiar with drag queens, having spent her early years in Miami and seen the brunch shows along Ocean Drive. She has at no point questioned her gender, to date. 

We had a School in Renfrew a while ago that made the papers by getting a Drag Queen nicknamed "Flow Job" to read stories. The parents weren't happy.

Mairi Black then responded on Twitter calling anyone and everyone a transphobe for not embracing it.

None of this helps anyone. 

[coprolite]

35 minutes ago, carpetmonster said:

The roasters are trying to sow moral panic and aren’t particularly arsed about facts so long as they frighten people. Chris Rufo freely admits it. It’s very profitable 

This is true.

But It shouldn’t lead you to conclude that everything he’s against is automatically without any fault.

The first article does make some reasonable points that should be obvious. But, I don’t recognise their description of the current reality being that trans stuff is forced on kids. I also have no way of knowing how accurate their account is of the process and lack of support for kids who transition. If their description is accurate then it’s obviously a bad situation.

This is where the ability to trust the source comes in. If there’s reason to doubt the veracity of the accounts then why should the conclusion be right?

I have no prior knowledge of the publication but the emotive straw manning doesn’t ring true.

 

The second one, presumably the first article about mental health, makes two major points: the original study was ideologically driven to incorrect findings; the original data shows no improvement in outcomes.

I think the first point is pretty clear and hard to dispute and should be a big concern for anyone.  Irrespective of the source.

Their second point is a bizarre non sequitur. They run through a whole load of variables that aren’t included that should have been, adjust for only one measure and reach a conclusion. Using data that was too shit to reach a conclusion with. That’s disingenuous, and exactly what they’ve been complaining about. 
 

Tldr: there’s a genuinely worthwhile point in one of the articles. 

[carpetmonster]

15 minutes ago, coprolite said:

This is true.

But It shouldn’t lead you to conclude that everything he’s against is automatically without any fault.

The first article does make some reasonable points that should be obvious. But, I don’t recognise their description of the current reality being that trans stuff is forced on kids. I also have no way of knowing how accurate their account is of the process and lack of support for kids who transition. If their description is accurate then it’s obviously a bad situation.

This is where the ability to trust the source comes in. If there’s reason to doubt the veracity of the accounts then why should the conclusion be right?

I have no prior knowledge of the publication but the emotive straw manning doesn’t ring true.

 

The second one, presumably the first article about mental health, makes two major points: the original study was ideologically driven to incorrect findings; the original data shows no improvement in outcomes.

I think the first point is pretty clear and hard to dispute and should be a big concern for anyone.  Irrespective of the source.

Their second point is a bizarre non sequitur. They run through a whole load of variables that aren’t included that should have been, adjust for only one measure and reach a conclusion. Using data that was too shit to reach a conclusion with. That’s disingenuous, and exactly what they’ve been complaining about. 
 

Tldr: there’s a genuinely worthwhile point in one of the articles. 

The way I see it is that some people are trans. Have been for centuries. Are there more folks presenting as trans now than in years prior? Probably. The increased acceptance of the LGBTQ+ populace in general would likely lead to more folks being confident in approaching the subject. 
 

To my mind, the therapeutic and clinical best practices that have been worked on and implicated work, for the vastly most part. The Times or Telegraph headline (can’t remember which off the top of my head) that 1000 people could sue the Tavistock was entirely fabricated that 1000 people had been prescribed puberty blockers over the course of a decade. To the best of my knowledge the only one who has was Keira Bell. Rates of detransition are very low. Rates of regret on gender affirming care are lower still. Kiera Bell has apparently retransitioned. This to me, suggests care is useful and effective. Were that not to be the case, the folks I’d listen to as to why would more likely be specialist therapists and clinicians than hard right think tanks. 

[DeeTillEhDeh]

1 hour ago, coprolite said:

This is true.

But It shouldn’t lead you to conclude that everything he’s against is automatically without any fault.

The first article does make some reasonable points that should be obvious. But, I don’t recognise their description of the current reality being that trans stuff is forced on kids. I also have no way of knowing how accurate their account is of the process and lack of support for kids who transition. If their description is accurate then it’s obviously a bad situation.

This is where the ability to trust the source comes in. If there’s reason to doubt the veracity of the accounts then why should the conclusion be right?

I have no prior knowledge of the publication but the emotive straw manning doesn’t ring true.

 

The second one, presumably the first article about mental health, makes two major points: the original study was ideologically driven to incorrect findings; the original data shows no improvement in outcomes.

I think the first point is pretty clear and hard to dispute and should be a big concern for anyone.  Irrespective of the source.

Their second point is a bizarre non sequitur. They run through a whole load of variables that aren’t included that should have been, adjust for only one measure and reach a conclusion. Using data that was too shit to reach a conclusion with. That’s disingenuous, and exactly what they’ve been complaining about. 
 

Tldr: there’s a genuinely worthwhile point in one of the articles. 

There's also the reality that a source may be be full of facts but still unreliable because the facts that are given are out of context or other counterfactual evidence is  deliberately ignored.

[The_Kincardine]

I see the Uni of E'bra is clamping free speech.  Long time (40ish years) since I was at Uni but we always welcomed debate on any topic.

 

[andyg83]

7 hours ago, carpetmonster said:

The way I see it is that some people are trans. Have been for centuries. Are there more folks presenting as trans now than in years prior? Probably. The increased acceptance of the LGBTQ+ populace in general would likely lead to more folks being confident in approaching the subject. 
 

To my mind, the therapeutic and clinical best practices that have been worked on and implicated work, for the vastly most part. The Times or Telegraph headline (can’t remember which off the top of my head) that 1000 people could sue the Tavistock was entirely fabricated that 1000 people had been prescribed puberty blockers over the course of a decade. To the best of my knowledge the only one who has was Keira Bell. Rates of detransition are very low. Rates of regret on gender affirming care are lower still. Kiera Bell has apparently retransitioned. This to me, suggests care is useful and effective. Were that not to be the case, the folks I’d listen to as to why would more likely be specialist therapists and clinicians than hard right think tanks. 

It's almost like you haven't paid attention  

The whole issue is that the specialists appear to have been cornered by the vocal movement. That's the scary part. 

[carpetmonster]

3 minutes ago, andyg83 said:

It's almost like you haven't paid attention  

The whole issue is that the specialists appear to have been cornered by the vocal movement. That's the scary part. 

It’s almost like I did, and I worked out there was no ‘vocal movement’ but that trans people were an easy scapegoat to spread lies about and frighten halfwits with. Don’t take my word for it tho; here’s the Deputy Chairman of the Conservative Party - https://www.mygwork.com/en/my-g-news/lee-anderson-says-tories-should-fight-election-on-culture-wars-and-trans-debate

[Antlion]

6 hours ago, The_Kincardine said:

I see the Uni of E'bra is clamping free speech.  Long time (40ish years) since I was at Uni but we always welcomed debate on any topic.

 

I’d guess the University of Hard Knocks was always a bit louche. 

[carpetmonster]

7 minutes ago, Antlion said:

I’d guess the University of Hard Knocks was always a bit louche. 

The entire movie is free to access on YouTube, should you be interested in watching the movie and not just turning up to make a show of yourself on the camera. At least Elaine Miller kept her merkin to herself this time. 

[vikingTON]

8 hours ago, carpetmonster said:

The way I see it is that some people are trans. Have been for centuries. Are there more folks presenting as trans now than in years prior? Probably. The increased acceptance of the LGBTQ+ populace in general would likely lead to more folks being confident in approaching the subject. 

Increased acceptance of LBTQ+ doesn't explain why:

1) Cases of 'gender dysphoria' have rocketed only among children but not the rest of the population. 

2) Cases have rocketed specifically in girls at the transition to puberty, but not boys or significantly older/younger categories of children. 

3) Children on the ASD spectrum are far, far more likely (in the region of 20x) to be presented as a case than their share of the population. 

The self-ID mantra that children are inherently conscious of their 'true' gender cannot explain those glaring disparities. If it is inherent, then rates among ASD children would be the same as non-ASD children, as there is no causal link between the two statuses. It would also be similar across age and birth sex categories. 

The reality is that gender dysphoria as a legitimate medical condition has been intertwined with gender anxiety as a socially produced psychological disorder. It is the social context that explains quite clearly why girls at the age of puberty express heightened anxiety about their gender (exacerbated by social media) and why ASD children are far, far more likely to identify themselves as transgender - but only in recent years. We are failing these socially vulnerable groups in society by not adopting the same critical stance as we would do for the views of legal children on any other highly consequential aspect of their lives. We do not need to be more critical or completely dismissive of their feelings- but mindless affirmation and then consequential medical treatment is producing demonstrable harms that the trans rights lobby cannot simply hand wave aside as the Price of Progress. 

[andyg83]

7 minutes ago, virginton said:

Increased acceptance of LBTQ+ doesn't explain why:

1) Cases of 'gender dysphoria' have rocketed only among children but not the rest of the population. 

2) Cases have rocketed specifically in girls at the transition to puberty, but not boys or significantly older/younger categories of children. 

3) Children on the ASD spectrum are far, far more likely (in the region of 20x) to be presented as a case than their share of the population. 

The self-ID mantra that children are inherently conscious of their 'true' gender cannot explain those glaring disparities. If it is inherent, then rates among ASD children would be the same as non-ASD children, as there is no causal link between the two statuses. It would also be similar across age and birth sex categories. 

The reality is that gender dysphoria as a legitimate medical condition has been intertwined with gender anxiety as a socially produced psychological disorder. It is the social context that explains quite clearly why girls at the age of puberty express heightened anxiety about their gender (exacerbated by social media) and why ASD children are far, far more likely to identify themselves as transgender - but only in recent years. We are failing these socially vulnerable groups in society by not adopting the same critical stance as we would do for the views of legal children on any other highly consequential aspect of their lives. We do not need to be more critical or completely dismissive of their feelings- but mindless affirmation and then consequential medical treatment is producing demonstrable harms that the trans rights lobby cannot simply hand wave aside as the Price of Progress. 

"The reality is that gender dysphoria as a legitimate medical condition has been intertwined with gender anxiety as a socially produced psychological disorder."

 

This is something to think about.

[vikingTON]

6 hours ago, The_Kincardine said:

I see the Uni of E'bra is clamping free speech.  Long time (40ish years) since I was at Uni but we always welcomed debate on any topic.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/apr/26/edinburgh-university-cancels-film-screening-after-trans-rights-protest

To be fair to Edinburgh Uni, they're not actually clamping free speech. The Uni can't employ hundreds of private security to knock the heads together of extremist clown protestors (both pro and anti) at a film screening. 

The people shutting down freedom of speech yet again are the fundamentalist wing of the trans rights movement, as part of their strategy of shutting down anything that doesn't align with their new, secular religion. They have no place in an academic setting but it would take a change in the law before any institution will act against them. 

[carpetmonster]

24 minutes ago, virginton said:

Increased acceptance of LBTQ+ doesn't explain why:

1) Cases of 'gender dysphoria' have rocketed only among children but not the rest of the population

You get used to what you're used to. It took Eddie Izzard 20 plus years of cross dressing on national TV before she said aight, I'm a woman. I'm sure we're both old enough to remember STRAIGHT ACTING!!! being at the top of most of the WLTM classies in the Evening Times. 

 

24 minutes ago, virginton said:

. 

2) Cases have rocketed specifically in girls at the transition to puberty, but not boys or significantly older/younger categories of children. 

If that's true, then it doesn't fit into the current panic where F2M trans people are essentially ignored, and mostly painted as confused lesbians on the rare occasions they're acknowledged. There's very little coverage of Patricio Manuel vs Lia Thomas, or the trans woman who finished 6130th (might be out here) at this weekend's London Marathon. 

24 minutes ago, virginton said:

3) Children on the ASD spectrum are far, far more likely (in the region of 20x) to be presented as a case than their share of the population. 

The self-ID mantra that children are inherently conscious of their 'true' gender cannot explain those glaring disparities. If it is inherent, then rates among ASD children would be the same as non-ASD children, as there is no causal link between the two statuses. It would also be similar across age and birth sex categories. 

The reality is that gender dysphoria as a legitimate medical condition has been intertwined with gender anxiety as a socially produced psychological disorder. It is the social context that explains quite clearly why girls at the age of puberty express heightened anxiety about their gender (exacerbated by social media) and why ASD children are far, far more likely to identify themselves as transgender - but only in recent years. We are failing these socially vulnerable groups in society by not adopting the same critical stance as we would do for the views of legal children on any other highly consequential aspect of their lives. We do not need to be more critical or completely dismissive of their feelings- but mindless affirmation and then consequential medical treatment is producing demonstrable harms that the trans rights lobby cannot simply hand wave aside as the Price of Progress. 

No we can't. However, we're less than 30 years from the first diagnosis of autism as being a spectrum disorder. As I've already said, I don't believe the evidence vis a vis the very low rates of detransitioning and the even lower rates of regret around gender affirming care represent that 'mindless affirmation' is actually happening. 

[f_c_dundee]

2 hours ago, carpetmonster said:

The entire movie is free to access on YouTube, should you be interested in watching the movie and not just turning up to make a show of yourself on the camera. At least Elaine Miller kept her merkin to herself this time. 

The event yesterday was also to involve a discussion according to the organisers, so that's a wee bit of a twisted interpretation.  No show or drama would occur though, if you didn't have people blocking them from attending a film showing and being allowed to talk... 

Stay at home and watch YouTube wimmin!

[itzdrk]

Folk still twisting themselves in knots to explain why it's ok to be bigoted to this one group? 

 

Edited April 27, 2023 by itzdrk
That will be a yes.