Russian invasion of Ukraine

[DiegoDiego]

Maybe the Ukrainians aren't keen on letting the Russian mass rapists and murderers loose on their cities again.

Obviously that's somewhat naughty behaviour, but there are what, 15 million displaced people in Ukraine? You can see why the Russians treat anyone hanging about the front lines as a legitimate target.

[invergowrie arab]

8 hours ago, welshbairn said:

Maybe if Britain had just started bombing Cork and Dublin and invaded from Ulster, tales of its past barbarity would be a popular topic in the global media.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burning_of_Cork

[Todd_is_God]

4 minutes ago, DiegoDiego said:

Obviously that's somewhat naughty behaviour, but there are what, 15 million displaced people in Ukraine? You can see why the Russians treat anyone hanging about the front lines as a legitimate target.

It also doesn't help that people were actively encouraged to attack Russian soldiers early on with pretty much anything they could lay their hands on.

This was then completely ignored when Russian soldiers appeared to have killed civilians.

[welshbairn]

28 minutes ago, invergowrie arab said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burning_of_Cork

That was my point. The media are dredging up bad things about Russia now because they're bombing the f**k out of a neighbour without any provocation or threat, but purely for regaining territory lost through democratic referenda for independence. If it was Britain trying to get Eire back the same way the global media would be full of the burning of Cork in 1920.

Edited June 10, 2022 by welshbairn

[welshbairn]

If only Ukrainians would just be nice to their invaders we wouldn't have all this unpleasantness.

[Newbornbairn]

1 hour ago, welshbairn said:

If only Ukrainians would just be nice to their invaders we wouldn't have all this unpleasantness.

True. Some level of victim blaming going on here from the site contrarians. 

[Todd_is_God]

24 minutes ago, Newbornbairn said:

True. Some level of victim blaming going on here from the site contrarians. 

Absolutely not the intention. But if civilians en masse start attacking soldiers of an enemy army (in an attempt to kill or seriously injure them), they can't really expect said soldiers to leave them alone and treat them as civilians.

Edited June 10, 2022 by Todd_is_God

[Gordon EF]

27 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

Absolutely not the intention. But if civilians en masse start attacking soldiers of an enemy army (in an attempt to kill or seriously injure them), they can't really expect said soldiers to leave them alone and treat them as civilians.

You're not really supposed to be raping, torturing, and murdering unarmed people, whether they are civilians or not or whether you feel justifed in treating them like civilians or not.

[DiegoDiego]

You're not really supposed to be raping, torturing, and murdering unarmed people, whether they are civilians or not or whether you feel justifed in treating them like civilians or not.

Of course, but Ukrainians need to realise that the Russians aren't exactly checking the rules on the inside of the box cover before making their moves.

[welshbairn]

14 minutes ago, DiegoDiego said:

 

Of course, but Ukrainians need to realise that the Russians aren't exactly checking the rules on the inside of the box cover before making their moves.

I think they're quite well aware of that by now. This is what happens when a 67 year old offers them cigarettes. Apologies for the source.

 

Edited June 10, 2022 by welshbairn

[dirty dingus]

4 hours ago, Todd_is_God said:

If Wales had just let Ukraine beat them on Sunday those troops would be in Moscow now

FFS stop being a fanny.

[Newbornbairn]

1 hour ago, Todd_is_God said:

Absolutely not the intention. But if civilians en masse start attacking soldiers of an enemy army (in an attempt to kill or seriously injure them), they can't really expect said soldiers to leave them alone and treat them as civilians.

Ah, the My Lai defence. 

[Gordon EF]

30 minutes ago, DiegoDiego said:

 

Of course, but Ukrainians need to realise that the Russians aren't exactly checking the rules on the inside of the box cover before making their moves.

I think they know that already.

[dirty dingus]

Is this undermanned cannon fodder game planning by Ukraine just like Mauripol to give time to secure everything beyond the Dniper river? At the start of the war everyman under 50 was told to stay so it takes time, training and logistics to get that sorted. The glorious heros of snake island on a bigger scale.

[DiegoDiego]

I think they know that already.

Of course they do, it was in relation to VT's post which effectively said Ukraine have two choices: cede land to the enemy or send more people to the front to suffer such acts in a protracted war that Russia seem very willing to fight.

At what point do the lives of your citizens become more important than the land they once lived on?

[Gordon EF]

1 hour ago, DiegoDiego said:

Of course they do, it was in relation to VT's post which effectively said Ukraine have two choices: cede land to the enemy or send more people to the front to suffer such acts in a protracted war that Russia seem very willing to fight.

At what point do the lives of your citizens become more important than the land they once lived on?

That's up to the Ukranians to decide. I don't think there's an objectively correct or incorrect answer to that question.

[welshbairn]

2 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

That's up to the Ukranians to decide. I don't think there's an objectively correct or incorrect answer to that question.

I don't think  Zelensky has the authority to surrender his country to Putin anyway, and there's no indication that Russia would stop at the Donbas border. They're still bombing Kiev, Kharkov and Odessa. 

[vikingTON]

7 hours ago, Gordon EF said:

That's up to the Ukranians to decide. I don't think there's an objectively correct or incorrect answer to that question.

Which Ukrainians? They're not a fucking hivemind all singing from the same hymn sheet: no less than any other country's population and leaders are united behind a single policy.

Ukraine's current strategy is useful to politicians like Zelenskiy who wants indefinite Western aid (and needs bodies, quite bluntly, to keep pressing that emergency case every single day), as well as liberals in the West who think that their Twitter hot takes are this century's equivalent of the International Brigades.

I'd be very surprised if there wasn't significant discontent at the current strategy within Ukraine's military, because it makes absolutely no strategic sense to continue fighting a one-sided artillery duel and suffering extremely high rates of attrition. There's an objectively correct answer to that question from a military standpoint and it is at odds with the needs of the khaki president. 

Edited June 11, 2022 by vikingTON

[vikingTON]

7 hours ago, welshbairn said:

I don't think  Zelensky has the authority to surrender his country to Putin anyway, and there's no indication that Russia would stop at the Donbas border. They're still bombing Kiev, Kharkov and Odessa. 

It's not a question of 'surrendering the country' - it's a strategic question about trading space for time, rather than trading essential soldiers and morale as artillery fodder in order to stay in the news cycle and foster Zelenskiy's persona.

A lesson that if Kiev's leaders weren't busy engaging in a hysterical bonfire of their shared history, they could have already absorbed from the memory of Marshal Kutusov during Napoleon's invasion. 

[Newbornbairn]

fucking lol