The Queen of the South thread

[Otis Blue]

1 hour ago, Palmerstunned said:

First time posting on here, as a long time Queens supporter and reader of this message board the current state of the club has finally prompted me into action!

This is easily the worst Queens team I've had the misfortune to watch in many years going to Palmerston. Yes we've had poor teams in the past (often very poor) but generally there has always been at least a glimmer of hope,  a bit of fight or passion in the team that as a supporter you felt might get us back into games, even if more often than not it didn't actually end up getting us a result. However, that's been totally absent this season and I now find myself going to games with absolutely no hope or expectation that this team will do anything other than collapse to another abject, pathetic, toothless defeat.

Gibson, Brydon, Todd, Reilly, Connelly, Cochrane, McKay, Walker - these are all players that can and should be capable of doing a job at this level. Gibson and Walker are arguably our 2 most creative attacking players out wide and should cause problems for any team in this division, yet Bartley consistently leaves them on the bench or plays them far too deep to make any difference. As a local boy, Gibson is exactly the kind of talent we should be nurturing, if, as reported, he does leave in the summer then I will lay the blame solely at Bartley's door. The reality of Scottish League 1 football is that it ain't always pretty, strength, pace, aggression and direct attacking football are what gets results at this level. Trying to play it out from the back and continual sideways passing like Man City or Real Madrid won't work at this level, the players just don't have the skill to be able to pull it off. Teams that try to play that way at this level will very quickly get found out, as we've seen all too often this season.

Like many, I was genuinely excited when Bartley came in and was desperate for him to be a success, but he's clearly way out of his depth and his naive tactics, stubbornness and arrogant management style have sucked the life out of the players, the supporters and the club. He makes absolutely no attempt to create a connection or build a rapport with the fans, witness how he always immediately disappears straight down the tunnel at the final whistle with absolutely no acknowledgement of the supporters that continue to turn up week-in week-out despite the abject performances being served up and the lack of anything approaching even mild entertainment. I can't work out if this is due to sheer embarrassment at the quality of the performances or just down right pig-headedness. I can only assume the latter as his post match interviews are masterclass in gaslighting and a complete insult to those of us who pay good money to attend the games. If he wants to continue a career in football management after this disaster then he's got a hell of a lot to learn with regards to managing things off the field as well as tactics on the field. I get that as a young manager he perhaps wants to position himself as a no-nonsense, hard taskmaster, but his complete lack of humility or self-reflection completely let him down. Any self respecting Board would have sacked him after the home defeat to Kelty in November, the fact he is still here nearly 6 months on is a damning indictment of those running the club and an utter dereliction of duty.

Bartley and the Board are extremely lucky that Queens supporters are so passive. Supporters of any other full-time club in our current position would likely be subjecting the manager and the Board to a barrage of banners and chants during matches ('Bartley Out', 'Sack the Board'), fan protests outside the ground and potentially even boycotts (although perhaps you could argue that is happening silently anyway through falling attendances). With the exception of a few seconds of booing at full time and a few moans and groans on social media, Queens supporters are an apathetic bunch. Perhaps we should share some of the blame for not being more active or forceful in making our voices heard and trying to force change (and I include myself in this)?

Like many, I just want this season to be over now to put me out of my misery. Hopefully we're still in League 1 at that point, if we are it will only be because results elsewhere will have helped us, I'm under no illusions - this team under this manager couldn't fight it's way out of a wet paper bag. From there, a complete re-build is a MUST this summer, a new Board, a new Manager and a complete overhaul of the playing squad. I'll certainly be holding off buying a season ticket until at the very least Bartley has gone.

But despite everything, I still hold out hope that somehow and at some point better is to come - it's all we've got, right?

Another view/input always welcome.

It's clear we don't have any stars in our squad, but there are a few that a decent coach could get a tune out of I think.

Like many of us, I wanted the Bartley experiment to succeed, but he just lacks the humility to learn from his failings.

[louisxiv]

1 hour ago, Palmerstunned said:

First time posting on here, as a long time Queens supporter and reader of this message board the current state of the club has finally prompted me into action!

This is easily the worst Queens team I've had the misfortune to watch in many years going to Palmerston. Yes we've had poor teams in the past (often very poor) but generally there has always been at least a glimmer of hope,  a bit of fight or passion in the team that as a supporter you felt might get us back into games, even if more often than not it didn't actually end up getting us a result. However, that's been totally absent this season and I now find myself going to games with absolutely no hope or expectation that this team will do anything other than collapse to another abject, pathetic, toothless defeat.

Gibson, Brydon, Todd, Reilly, Connelly, Cochrane, McKay, Walker - these are all players that can and should be capable of doing a job at this level. Gibson and Walker are arguably our 2 most creative attacking players out wide and should cause problems for any team in this division, yet Bartley consistently leaves them on the bench or plays them far too deep to make any difference. As a local boy, Gibson is exactly the kind of talent we should be nurturing, if, as reported, he does leave in the summer then I will lay the blame solely at Bartley's door. The reality of Scottish League 1 football is that it ain't always pretty, strength, pace, aggression and direct attacking football are what gets results at this level. Trying to play it out from the back and continual sideways passing like Man City or Real Madrid won't work at this level, the players just don't have the skill to be able to pull it off. Teams that try to play that way at this level will very quickly get found out, as we've seen all too often this season.

Like many, I was genuinely excited when Bartley came in and was desperate for him to be a success, but he's clearly way out of his depth and his naive tactics, stubbornness and arrogant management style have sucked the life out of the players, the supporters and the club. He makes absolutely no attempt to create a connection or build a rapport with the fans, witness how he always immediately disappears straight down the tunnel at the final whistle with absolutely no acknowledgement of the supporters that continue to turn up week-in week-out despite the abject performances being served up and the lack of anything approaching even mild entertainment. I can't work out if this is due to sheer embarrassment at the quality of the performances or just down right pig-headedness. I can only assume the latter as his post match interviews are masterclass in gaslighting and a complete insult to those of us who pay good money to attend the games. If he wants to continue a career in football management after this disaster then he's got a hell of a lot to learn with regards to managing things off the field as well as tactics on the field. I get that as a young manager he perhaps wants to position himself as a no-nonsense, hard taskmaster, but his complete lack of humility or self-reflection completely let him down. Any self respecting Board would have sacked him after the home defeat to Kelty in November, the fact he is still here nearly 6 months on is a damning indictment of those running the club and an utter dereliction of duty.

Bartley and the Board are extremely lucky that Queens supporters are so passive. Supporters of any other full-time club in our current position would likely be subjecting the manager and the Board to a barrage of banners and chants during matches ('Bartley Out', 'Sack the Board'), fan protests outside the ground and potentially even boycotts (although perhaps you could argue that is happening silently anyway through falling attendances). With the exception of a few seconds of booing at full time and a few moans and groans on social media, Queens supporters are an apathetic bunch. Perhaps we should share some of the blame for not being more active or forceful in making our voices heard and trying to force change (and I include myself in this)?

Like many, I just want this season to be over now to put me out of my misery. Hopefully we're still in League 1 at that point, if we are it will only be because results elsewhere will have helped us, I'm under no illusions - this team under this manager couldn't fight it's way out of a wet paper bag. From there, a complete re-build is a MUST this summer, a new Board, a new Manager and a complete overhaul of the playing squad. I'll certainly be holding off buying a season ticket until at the very least Bartley has gone.

But despite everything, I still hold out hope that somehow and at some point better is to come - it's all we've got, right?

Great post. Hard to argue with that.

[bod]

2 hours ago, 19QOS19 said:

 

I don't agree with Walker being one of our best attacking players. He's absolute dugshite. Bartley never playing him has probably done Walker a favour as folk start to forget how bad he is. 

Hard to argue with anything else really and we've been saying the same on here for months. Welcome aboard @Palmerstunned

How did I miss that about Walker as I've always thought and been vocal about how he was rank rotten, maybe I just blank him out of my mind.  One of a number of Bartley flops.

[Greenacres]

3 hours ago, Palmerstunned said:

First time posting on here, as a long time Queens supporter and reader of this message board the current state of the club has finally prompted me into action!

This is easily the worst Queens team I've had the misfortune to watch in many years going to Palmerston. Yes we've had poor teams in the past (often very poor) but generally there has always been at least a glimmer of hope,  a bit of fight or passion in the team that as a supporter you felt might get us back into games, even if more often than not it didn't actually end up getting us a result. However, that's been totally absent this season and I now find myself going to games with absolutely no hope or expectation that this team will do anything other than collapse to another abject, pathetic, toothless defeat.

Gibson, Brydon, Todd, Reilly, Connelly, Cochrane, McKay, Walker - these are all players that can and should be capable of doing a job at this level. Gibson and Walker are arguably our 2 most creative attacking players out wide and should cause problems for any team in this division, yet Bartley consistently leaves them on the bench or plays them far too deep to make any difference. As a local boy, Gibson is exactly the kind of talent we should be nurturing, if, as reported, he does leave in the summer then I will lay the blame solely at Bartley's door. The reality of Scottish League 1 football is that it ain't always pretty, strength, pace, aggression and direct attacking football are what gets results at this level. Trying to play it out from the back and continual sideways passing like Man City or Real Madrid won't work at this level, the players just don't have the skill to be able to pull it off. Teams that try to play that way at this level will very quickly get found out, as we've seen all too often this season.

Like many, I was genuinely excited when Bartley came in and was desperate for him to be a success, but he's clearly way out of his depth and his naive tactics, stubbornness and arrogant management style have sucked the life out of the players, the supporters and the club. He makes absolutely no attempt to create a connection or build a rapport with the fans, witness how he always immediately disappears straight down the tunnel at the final whistle with absolutely no acknowledgement of the supporters that continue to turn up week-in week-out despite the abject performances being served up and the lack of anything approaching even mild entertainment. I can't work out if this is due to sheer embarrassment at the quality of the performances or just down right pig-headedness. I can only assume the latter as his post match interviews are masterclass in gaslighting and a complete insult to those of us who pay good money to attend the games. If he wants to continue a career in football management after this disaster then he's got a hell of a lot to learn with regards to managing things off the field as well as tactics on the field. I get that as a young manager he perhaps wants to position himself as a no-nonsense, hard taskmaster, but his complete lack of humility or self-reflection completely let him down. Any self respecting Board would have sacked him after the home defeat to Kelty in November, the fact he is still here nearly 6 months on is a damning indictment of those running the club and an utter dereliction of duty.

Bartley and the Board are extremely lucky that Queens supporters are so passive. Supporters of any other full-time club in our current position would likely be subjecting the manager and the Board to a barrage of banners and chants during matches ('Bartley Out', 'Sack the Board'), fan protests outside the ground and potentially even boycotts (although perhaps you could argue that is happening silently anyway through falling attendances). With the exception of a few seconds of booing at full time and a few moans and groans on social media, Queens supporters are an apathetic bunch. Perhaps we should share some of the blame for not being more active or forceful in making our voices heard and trying to force change (and I include myself in this)?

Like many, I just want this season to be over now to put me out of my misery. Hopefully we're still in League 1 at that point, if we are it will only be because results elsewhere will have helped us, I'm under no illusions - this team under this manager couldn't fight it's way out of a wet paper bag. From there, a complete re-build is a MUST this summer, a new Board, a new Manager and a complete overhaul of the playing squad. I'll certainly be holding off buying a season ticket until at the very least Bartley has gone.

But despite everything, I still hold out hope that somehow and at some point better is to come - it's all we've got, right?

Great Post hopefully the first of many.

Every word you say I agree with I certainly will not renew my season ticket if Bartley is still in charge. 

Never have I been so down as a Queens fan this has been the worse season I can remember 

[Palmerstunned]

11 hours ago, DoonhamerDon said:

Took another look at the numbers on our home form

Since the start of 2019/20 we've managed 87 points at home in the league from 79 games - 

1.1 ppg for 5 years - no wonder folk are finding something better to do than head to Palmerston.

2019/20 - 14 pts from 14 games

2020/21 - 15 pts from 13 games

2021/22 - 17 pts from 18 games

2022/23 - 29pts from 18 games

2023/24 - 12pts from 16 games

An anomaly in the second half of last season saw 6 wins from last 9 at home and three in a row - the fabled run of form that got Bartley his 2 year contract. 

This year the worst of the lot and a 4th relegation battle in 5 years, despite playing a league lower 

 

So only 12 points out of a possible 48 at home yet 22 out of 48 away.

The team train in Hamilton.

i don’t know the numbers but I’m guessing that most of our current first team squad and the manager all live in the central belt. How often do they come to Palmerston/Dumfries? Is it only on match days?

I willing to bet that most of these guys have to travel further to play a ‘home’ game than they do to most away games.

So, we’ve got a team who mostly have to travel a decent distance to a ground they only visit every couple of weeks in front of crowd who are hardly known for their vocal support (when was the last time anyone heard any chants or singing at Palmerston that didn’t come from away supporters?).

Difficult to see how that creates any sort of ‘home’ advantage?

[Slipmat]

1 hour ago, Palmerstunned said:

So, we’ve got a team who mostly have to travel a decent distance to a ground they only visit every couple of weeks in front of crowd who are hardly known for their vocal support (when was the last time anyone heard any chants or singing at Palmerston that didn’t come from away supporters?).

Difficult to see how that creates any sort of ‘home’ advantage?

You may be onto something here.

In English football, in my youth the club with the reputation for being hardest to beat on their own ground was said to be Millwall who went through 2 consecutive league seasons unbeaten at home in the mid-60s, and then on a further occasion in the very early 70s.  This included a 59 game unbeaten run.  Obviously this was probably helped by the, ahem, "boisterous" reputation of Millwall fans giving the (old) Den a most unwelcoming and threatening atmosphere.

There's certainly none of that at Palmerston where we only tend to grumble and tut-tut at our own players, aside from the odd occasion when an opposing player gets away with a horror tackle or gamesmanship.  Now I'm not suggesting for one moment that Queens fans go all Millwall and start ripping up seats and throwing them at the dozen or so Cove fans who make the trip to Dumfries in order to create something approaching an  intimidating atmosphere , but the current shitshow on the pitch gives us very little to shout about meaning that the old "the supporters are our twelfth man" cliche certainly doesn't apply at Palmerston.

ETA:  not having a pop at our fans, it's just that the on-field product doesn't exactly stir the emotions.

Edited April 8 by Slipmat

[Monkey Tennis]

1 minute ago, Artemis said:

Has the travelling not pretty much always been the case, though? And even if it does explain not having any real home advantage, it doesn’t explain why Queens have a home disadvantage.
I’m starting to wonder if it is maybe just coincidence and the home form thing is a red herring. It could be that they’ve just won games at Cove or Alloa or Montrose when the opposition had a particularly bad day. Maybe the home form is the default position and at least a couple of the away wins were nothing to do with the venue. Not necessarily flukes but just days when Queens happened to play decent and/or the opposition were off. It isn’t like the away form is outstanding. It is about average for the division.
The difference is only 4 games. If 2 of the away wins had been at home instead, the home points total would be higher than the away.

I think there's probably something in this.

We've been poor for years and we can be hopeless in games frequently, regardless of where they're staged.  

it is unusual for it to be no better, or even worse, than we are away over successive seasons though.  

I do sometimes wonder about the lack of connection between team and town, but as you say, we've generally trained elsewhere, and it's hard to see past the logic of us doing so.

I don't really hold with the criticism some made of fans for not creating an atmosphere though.  Our gates are absolutely terrible these days, but I genuinely think it's remarkable that they're not worse.

[bod]

There was a group of youngsters at the start of the season who were singing and seemed to be trying to create an atmosphere but their enthusiasm dwindled away as Bartley's tactics started to show through and performances faded away.

[Palmerstunned]

21 minutes ago, Artemis said:

Looking at Annan’s home and away form, they’ve got 21 points at home and 10 points away. I imagine they have to do a similar amount of travelling to home games and they get even smaller crowds.
There probably is something in the lack of connection and possibly some of the other stuff that explains previous seasons when home and away points have been quite similar. But the common denominator in all the recent seasons is that Queens have been poor.  
I just think the difference this season is that all 4 of their unexpected wins have come away. If 2 of them had been at home, this season would look quite similar to all the other recent ones, with the main difference being that they are now a rotten team in League 1.

A lot of valid points being made here.

It just strikes me that when so much is often made of teams having ‘home advantage’, whether that’s a result of less travelling, having a connection and familiarity with the ground or town, or the atmosphere created by the home fans - it seems that we don’t currently benefit from any of these things.

[Parttimesupporter]

Crowdfunding to Raise funds for various Community Projects for children to use the power of football to positively impact their lives. on JustGiving

Not sure if this has been highlighted on here already, but even if it has worth a wee bump for a great cause.

[palmy_cammy]

I don’t think the first team training away from Dumfries is a factor in the terrible home form for the reasons stated. Most teams train at an alternative training ground rather than their home stadium anyway. The only real difference being Queens don’t own their training ground and it is outside their home town.

That being said, fans lap up performative actions and a “rallying call” from the manager saying he was determined to fix the appalling home form and had organised extra sessions at Palmerston to remedy it would likely be well received even if it had no basis on fact. Sadly Bartley seems to have no interest in appeasing people, and instead prefers to antagonise and alienate. He also probably thinks there is nothing wrong with the home form anyway.

Moving forward I think moving training back to Dumfries would be a quick win for the new Board at trying to repair the disconnect between fans and club. Unless I’m missing anything obvious, the main argument for training in the central belt was to attract a better standard of player. A quick glance at the squads from the past few years would show a glaring weakness in that argument. I thought the longer term vision when KGV was acquired was to turn it onto a doonhame version of La Masia?

[bod]

I'm very surprised they didn't have training down in Dumfries at least one day on each of the last two weeks to tie in with the Easter soccer camps.

[bod]

Back in the days of an exciting team playing 4-4-2.

[Fae_the_'briggs]

1 hour ago, Artemis said:

There’s nothing wrong with wanting more connection between the players and the fans or having a better atmosphere at home games. But I think any improvement in results would be very minor. The thing that will make the biggest difference is having a competent manager. If Queens had that and were up near the top of the league, there wouldn’t be any conversations about the rest of it.
I think people are trying to help and are trying to find reasons why the home form is different from the away form. I did the same myself. But I now think it is all down to Bartley and the fact that they’ve won a couple of games away that they haven’t done at home is nothing to do with the fans or the location of the training or anything else. 
I don’t see how Queens playing at Montrose or Alloa meant they had a better chance of beating them than they would at Palmerston. The bottom line is that Bartley has produced a terrible football team that has just happened to win 2 games away instead of at home. 

OK blaming Bartley for this season's fiasco but home form has been poor for several seasons now.

[Distant Doonhamer]

2 hours ago, bod said:

Back in the days of an exciting team playing 4-4-2.

Except we didn’t play 4-4-2 that night. 
Kidd and Holt as wing backs on either side of Durnan, Dowie and Higgins. 
https://www.qosfc.com/match-1075

Edited April 9 by Distant Doonhamer

[19QOS19]

On 07/04/2024 at 11:22, Kunter said:

 

It was the club's choice to go down the young route and bring in Bartley to develop them. 

No football manager would pick a team of primarily youngsters in the hope of pushing for promotion. 

Was always a development program not a promotion push. 

 

(Just reply here instead of the match thread) 

The concerning thing about this if true is that we shouldn't be expecting him to be sacked then. If promotion wasn't expected then he hasn't failed? Even if that is the case I'd argue he's failed at the development side as well as he's barely played any of our own youngsters. 

[bod]

1 hour ago, 19QOS19 said:

(Just reply here instead of the match thread) 

The concerning thing about this if true is that we shouldn't be expecting him to be sacked then. If promotion wasn't expected then he hasn't failed? Even if that is the case I'd argue he's failed at the development side as well as he's barely played any of our own youngsters. 

He's just failed, end of.

[Slipmat]

The reserves completed their league programme today, and it looking at their final playing record it would appear that the home form vs away form issue isn't exclusive to the first team:  

Queen of the South Reserves

8

1

0

3

7

9

2

1

1

9

9

-2

10

[queenslad]

I think set up of team is more for playing away from home than at home. The play is slow and all about keeping possession and playing safe. Doing that a way is easier than at home. We struggle to break teams down at home when they sit in but its easier to pick teams off when they show a bit of attacking intent

[QoS99]

7 hours ago, 19QOS19 said:

(Just reply here instead of the match thread) 

The concerning thing about this if true is that we shouldn't be expecting him to be sacked then. If promotion wasn't expected then he hasn't failed? Even if that is the case I'd argue he's failed at the development side as well as he's barely played any of our own youngsters. 

Well Bartley promised our Board and the players promotion, so yes from his own standards at the start of the season he has failed.