What is the answer?

[kingjoey]

6 hours ago, velo army said:

Behave.

It's not perfect, but it's certainly not a "terrible idea".

I think scottish teams bringing in coaches who can set up teams for European matches might be more immediately effective than summer football right now, but playing at a time of year where we don't need undersoil heating and people are more easily persuaded to sit outside watching football seems pretty sensible to me.

As you can tell, I'm a proponent of summer football. I'll concede that finishing the season in November isn't ideal, but neither is playing in the depths of winter. I think attendances for clubs outwith the top division would be higher which would increase revenue and hence the quality. I also think that TV deals would be better given we wouldn't be competing for audiences for english games.

Many positives, I feel.

Do you propose we fit all games in between April and September?

[velo army]

Just now, kingjoey said:

Do you propose we fit all games in between April and September?

March to November.

I'm not a full throated proponent of summer football, but I do think it's an idea worthy of consideration. 

We have dreadful weather for much of the season and we're asking fans to come out and pay almost 30 quid to sit outside in the rain and wind and watch a game which is being dictated by those conditions.

More clubs are also looking at providing more of a "fan experience" which I think is easier when games are in June and July.

 

[kingjoey]

9 minutes ago, velo army said:

March to November.

I'm not a full throated proponent of summer football, but I do think it's an idea worthy of consideration. 

We have dreadful weather for much of the season and we're asking fans to come out and pay almost 30 quid to sit outside in the rain and wind and watch a game which is being dictated by those conditions.

More clubs are also looking at providing more of a "fan experience" which I think is easier when games are in June and July.

 

 Last season finished on 1st June and this season started on 14th July, a six week break. You're proposing a three month break. How exactly?

[Ya Bezzer!]

Scottish clubs haven't kept a single clean sheet in 16 European ties so far this season, including Hibs losing goals in both legs against a non league team level side from Liechtenstein.  In fact the average goals conceded in these matches is 2.3 goals per game.

The standard of coaching is abysmal.

This should be evident most Saturdays but it's especially acute when placed in a competitive situation against a team from virtually any other country in Europe.

 

[kingjoey]

2 hours ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

Scottish clubs haven't kept a single clean sheet in 16 European ties so far this season, including Hibs losing goals in both legs against a non league team level side from Liechtenstein.  In fact the average goals conceded in these matches is 2.3 goals per game.

The standard of coaching is abysmal.

This should be evident most Saturdays but it's especially acute when placed in a competitive situation against a team from virtually any other country in Europe.

 

Andorra. 

[HibeeJibee]

4 hours ago, kingjoey said:

 Last season finished on 1st June and this season started on 14th July, a six week break. You're proposing a three month break. How exactly?

 

4 hours ago, velo army said:

March to November.

I'm not a full throated proponent of summer football, but I do think it's an idea worthy of consideration. 

We have dreadful weather for much of the season and we're asking fans to come out and pay almost 30 quid to sit outside in the rain and wind and watch a game which is being dictated by those conditions.

More clubs are also looking at providing more of a "fan experience" which I think is easier when games are in June and July.

You're talking out of an enormous hole in your hat.

Our season already lasts 10.5 months... June has a finals every other year... there are European qualifier rounds in July. It would be Jan > Dec, e.g.:




EDIT: looking more closely this actually breaks a couple of UEFA rules - you can't play on Champions League final day (Saturday 1st June) so if League Cup Final was Sunday 2nd then all Premiership matchday 19 games could have to be Friday night, in turn meaning preceding midweek would all have to be Tuesday and preceding weekend all Friday/Saturday... also Premiership matchday 21 is on UEFA Qualifying R1 midweek which usually isn't allowed (plus couldn't be televised). Plus there aren't enough free dates if Rangers or Celtic reached both Europa League/Conference League final and League Cup final, and no free dates at all after July for any postponements or cancellations... so might need to start Premiership a week early on Saturday 3rd February, in turn starting League Cup groups on Saturday 13th January.

You would also have to play Scottish Cup final on Sunday 22nd December not usual Saturday, if finalist was in Conference League groups.

Edited September 1, 2023 by HibeeJibee

[craigkillie]

7 hours ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

Scottish clubs haven't kept a single clean sheet in 16 European ties so far this season, including Hibs losing goals in both legs against a non league team level side from Liechtenstein.  In fact the average goals conceded in these matches is 2.3 goals per game.

The standard of coaching is abysmal.

This should be evident most Saturdays but it's especially acute when placed in a competitive situation against a team from virtually any other country in Europe.

 

Why is clean sheets suddenly a measure of how good a team is? Drawing every game 0-0 isn't better than winning every game 5-1.

[Monkey Tennis]

9 hours ago, kingjoey said:

 Last season finished on 1st June and this season started on 14th July, a six week break. You're proposing a three month break. How exactly?

He's proposing a 4 month break. It's bonkers.

[Monkey Tennis]

9 hours ago, velo army said:

Any evidence of football being watched more in summer months than winter would currently be irrelevant to my argument due to the sunny days bookending the season (if you have something to play for then more will go in the run-in, I imagine).

 

Well, we could try to factor in the fact that games in April and May might have higher stakes.  It might be offset a little, by some being dead rubbers anyway.

Maybe the July and August games might be of more use if we're looking for 'like for like' comparisons.

As I said, I really like having football through the winter - I think I need it at a time when barbecues, beer gardens, foreign holidays and golf aren't as available.  I don't imagine that's the case for everyone, but I reckon it might be for plenty of us.

Edited September 1, 2023 by Monkey Tennis

[Dons_1988]

3 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Well, we could try to factor in the fact that games in April and May might have higher stakes.  It might be offset a little, by some being dead rubbers anyway.

Maybe the July and August games might be of more use if we're looking for 'like for like' comparisons.

As I said, I really like having football through the winter - I think I need it at a time when barbecues, beer gardens, foreign holidays and golf aren't as available.  I don't imagine that's the case for everyone, but I reckon it might be for plenty of us.

I dislike the existing winter break in January as there is absolutely nothing to do in that month besides football. 

[velo army]

3 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Well, we could try to factor in the fact that games in April and May might have higher stakes.  It might be offset a little, by some being dead rubbers anyway.

Maybe the July and August games might be of more use if we're looking for 'like for like' comparisons.

As I said, I really like having football through the winter - I think I need it at a time when barbecues, beer gardens, foreign holidays and golf aren't as available.  I don't imagine that's the case for everyone, but I reckon it might be for plenty of us.

Aye that's fair enough. I was perhaps more passionate about it when Scotland were getting pumped by Kazakhstan, but now that we're comfortably winning the next Euros it's less of a burning issue with me.

[Monkey Tennis]

9 hours ago, velo army said:

More clubs are also looking at providing more of a "fan experience" 

Well they shouldn't be.

 "Fan Experience"  -  give yourself a shake Man.

[velo army]

Just now, Monkey Tennis said:

Well they shouldn't be.

 "Fan Experience"  -  give yourself a shake Man.

Oh I know. I dislike that term, but it's something that clubs have been looking at to bring in more revenue. I figure this would be easier in summer.

Don't pretend the idea of barbecues and slip n slides outside Palmerston wouldn't appeal to you.

[Monkey Tennis]

1 minute ago, velo army said:

Don't pretend the idea of barbecues and slip n slides outside Palmerston wouldn't appeal to you.

Aye you've got me there.

If I ever called it the Fan Experience though, I'd hope that any bystanders would immediately stone me to death.

[KirkieRR]

Summer football might lift the performances in the prelim/quali rounds but what if Scottish clubs get to the serious stuff  in Nov, Dec, Jan etc (yes, I know, stop laughing at the back there) but aren't playing regular domestic football?

Have any OF voices blamed getting held back by wee diddy teams yet?

[Ya Bezzer!]

On 01/09/2023 at 16:22, craigkillie said:

Why is clean sheets suddenly a measure of how good a team is? Drawing every game 0-0 isn't better than winning every game 5-1.

Because the main reason Scottish teams get pumped in Europe is the standard of off the ball/shape/basic defending is atrocious.

No Scottish team won 5-1.

In fact the weekly aggregate score was 2-15.

2-15.

You see now?

 

[craigkillie]

But several of the games you were talking about where they didn't keep clean sheets were wins or draws. Hibs beat Luzern 3-1, Hearts beat Rosenborg 3-1, Rangers beat Servette 2-1. If any of those games had been 0-0 then they'd have either gone out or to extra time.

[HibeeJibee]

Culturally an interesting point is that since Paulo Sergio left Hearts (well over a decade ago) there have been only 2 managers of non-OF clubs from beyond British Isles - brief reigns of Stendel at Hearts and Alessio at Kilmarnock. Indeed you can go back 20yrs and outside of Hearts the only other example is Paatelainen at Hibs.

Perhaps there's a club version of the "Vogts factor" underneath... but given the relatively strong numbers of foreign players here it's intriguing we've been so dismissive of foreign coaches.

Edited September 3, 2023 by HibeeJibee

[parsforlife]

15 minutes ago, HibeeJibee said:

Culturally an interesting point is that since Paulo Sergio left Hearts (well over a decade ago) there have been only 2 managers of non-OF clubs from beyond British Isles - brief reigns of Stendel at Hearts and Alessio at Kilmarnock. Indeed you can go back 20yrs and outside of Hearts the only other example is Paatelainen at Hibs.

Perhaps there's a club version of the "Vogts factor" underneath... but given the relatively strong numbers of foreign players here it's intriguing we've been so dismissive of foreign coaches.

I wouldn’t say dismissive, more that the manager market isn’t as developed, clubs don’t send out a team of scouts trying to find a new manager, they do it all the time for players, even if they know it’s going to take 2-3 windows to be able to make a deal to bring a player in,  usually clubs are barely prepared on who they’ll bring in if a manager leaves and can’t hang around long before making a permanent appointment where as clubs try and bring players in before they need to let someone go.

[craigkillie]

On 03/09/2023 at 15:57, HibeeJibee said:

Culturally an interesting point is that since Paulo Sergio left Hearts (well over a decade ago) there have been only 2 managers of non-OF clubs from beyond British Isles - brief reigns of Stendel at Hearts and Alessio at Kilmarnock. Indeed you can go back 20yrs and outside of Hearts the only other example is Paatelainen at Hibs.

Perhaps there's a club version of the "Vogts factor" underneath... but given the relatively strong numbers of foreign players here it's intriguing we've been so dismissive of foreign coaches.

Paatelainen also managed Killie and Dundee United.