Celtic v Dundee United, Bonfire Night delight

[Drew Brees]

20 minutes ago, AJF said:

But your point was that because the Dundee Utd player's arm was in a similar position to the Celtic player's arm, then that suggests the Celtic player's arm was likely to be in a natural position. So, I was asking what if the referee deemed that both players had their arms in an unnatural position.

Natural position is subjective so you will always get differing opinions, but your logic of "Dundee Utd players arm being in the same position as the Celtic player's arm = natural position" is flawed if the referee deems both of them to be unnatural.

Both jumping for the same ball at the same time and both bodies in exactly the same position, I’d say that’s natural. 

[Jinky67]

14 minutes ago, AJF said:

But your point was that because the Dundee Utd player's arm was in a similar position to the Celtic player's arm, then that suggests the Celtic player's arm was likely to be in a natural position. So, I was asking what if the referee deemed that both players had their arms in an unnatural position.

Natural position is subjective so you will always get differing opinions, but your logic of "Dundee Utd players arm being in the same position as the Celtic player's arm = natural position" is flawed if the referee deems both of them to be unnatural.

If it’s deemed from the defender the arm is in an unatural position it’s a pen.

If it’s the attacker the position of the arm isn’t taken into consideration it’s just a foul. There is no ambiguity

The point I was making which is seeming is very hard to understand is Bernabeis arm in an unatural position when another player (irrespective if he is an attacker or defender) jumps and his arm is in the same position?

[Henrik's tongue]

Natural positions are very vanilla.

 

imo.

[Jinky67]

Just now, Drew Brees said:

Both jumping for the same ball at the same time and both bodies in exactly the same position, I’d say that’s natural. 

Simply this but the suggestion is that if the Dundee Utd player handled it and scored it would be chopped off so it should then be a penalty

They don’t seem to understand the law is applied differently in those scenarios and if you’re an attacker a handball is a handball no matter if the position is natural or not.

 

[AJF]

Just now, Drew Brees said:

Both jumping for the same ball at the same time and both bodies in exactly the same position, I’d say that’s natural. 

This is what I am getting at. Jinky's claim that because the Dundee Utd player's arm is in the same position then it means they are both in a natural position is flawed if the referee deems both of them to be in an unnatural position. It's not up to me or you to decide, it's their decision.

Just now, Jinky67 said:

The point I was making which is seeming is very hard to understand is Bernabeis arm in an unatural position when another player (irrespective if he is an attacker or defender) jumps and his arm is in the same position?

See above reply to Drew. It's not hard to understand at all, I am not talking about attacking or defending scenarios at all. Get that out of your head because it is not my point. I am stating that the referee could (and probably did) consider that Bernabei's arm was in an unnatural position and would've deemed the Dundee Utd players arm was also in an unnatural position as well (even though this would not have been considered in an attacking scenario, I know they are applied differently).

[Jinky67]

29 minutes ago, AJF said:

This is what I am getting at. Jinky's claim that because the Dundee Utd player's arm is in the same position then it means they are both in a natural position is flawed if the referee deems both of them to be in an unnatural position. It's not up to me or you to decide, it's their decision.

 

I doubt very much doubt the referee even looked at the Dundee Utds players arm position when making the decision and if he did and still came to the conclusion that it’s wasn’t natural considering the almost identical body positioning of them both then that is questionable.

I assume we won’t see you questioning any referee decisions going forward since you feel the the autonomy lies solely with the ref? 

 

 

[AJF]

On 25/10/2022 at 15:15, AJF said:

I think the argument around deliberate handball has to be more than just a case of the above example and that's why you then have debates around unnatural arm positions.

Players attempting to block a ball may not make a deliberate movement towards the ball when it's in flight to block it, but if they rush at an attacked with arms spread out or held above their head before the ball is struck and it subsequently hits their arm, then by it's nature they have deliberately made their body bigger in an attempt to block the balls path even if they don't make a movement towards the ball after it is struck or in flight.

Of course though, this is very subjective because I often feel players attempting to block will always have a natural arm swing due to their momentum and I think these types of offences are penalised too often.

 

10 minutes ago, Jinky67 said:

 

I doubt very much doubt the referee even looked at the Dundee Utds players arm position when making the decision and if he did and still came to the conclusion that it’s wasn’t natural considering the almost identical body positioning of them both then that is questionable.

I assume we won’t see you questioning any referee decisions going forward since you feel the the autonomy lies solely with the ref? 

 

 

I’ve included my opinion above from another thread about these types of handball offences to try and clarify things. I am not saying that the decision was correct, nor am I saying either players arm wasn’t in a natural position.

I’ve always maintained any movement by a players arm due to momentum are penalised too often.

So to answer your question, no, you are wrong in your assumption.

My only point here was to question your claim of Dundee Utd arm + Celtic player arm in the same position = natural. It doesn’t work like that when the referee could consider both of them equally to be unnatural.