Another team resigns! Seen today a well known and established team Dunoon AFC have folded.

[stanley]

5 hours ago, Gazzah said:

Be interesting to see this now the season is well underway. Be a fair

few casualty’s already this year.

Border                         was 31     now 25     fall of 19%  same
Kingdom of Fife     was 43     now 32     fall of 26%   now 31 (down 1)
Perthshire                 was 29     now 21     fall of 28%  now 20 (down 1)
Aberdeenshire       was 85      now 60     fall of 29%  same
Ayrshire                      was 57     now 36     fall of 37%  same
Glasgow (all)            was 160  now 86      fall of 46%  now 80 (down 6)
Lothian & Edin        was 73     now 37      fall of 49%    now 34 (down 3)
Midlands                    was 53     now 21?    fall of 60%  same
Stirlingshire             was 45     now 12      fall of 73%  same

[stanley]

LEAFA is in huge decline and down 10 from last season. The Glasgow Saturday afternoon leagues also in big decline and down 12 from last season (largely due to clubs leaving or folding from the Scottish Premier - they've lost clubs continually since the merger). 

[HibeeJibee]

On 19/08/2023 at 12:57, HibeeJibee said:

Looking at the trend over 10 years here's the number clubs that began 2013-14; and numbers still going a few weeks into 2023-24 (which will be a little too high if the most recent withdrawals haven't yet been struck off websites):

 

4 minutes ago, stanley said:

Glasgow (all)            was 160  now 86      fall of 46%    now 80     (down 6)
Lothian & Edin        was 73     now 37      fall of 49%    now 34     (down 3)

[ammyo1]

Milngavie Wanderers (CALE) have now folded..sat morn team still continuing the name but that’s another big name gone. Been around for years

[mcruic]

Haddington Town and Corstorphine Dynamo Blues both now gone from the LEAFA Sunday section.

[Spyro]

I think it's time for the SAFA to shit or get off the pan. The whole system needed an overhaul 20 years ago but we still sleepwalk into the same old every season.

I would get rid of the 'Saturdays' and 'Sunday' stuff and have team make their availability know, and fixtures arranged around this. 

The old format of Divisional League over 1 year with a few cups added on can be completely spun on its head too. This would make more meaningful games while also giving a bit of flexibility. 

I would have the leagues more fluid, so that new team aren't massicaring a league for a whole season, just to fold the next season. 

I would also have a SUBSTANTIAL deposit set for all new teams to complete the season to stop this constant folding/reforming that some teams do. 

Players who can't commit or wish to play as trailists will need to registered as 'unassigned' with the league, but the rules around using trailists would be massively opened up.

Maybe a summer league that teams must commit to and will be the main focus, but the league should also run a 'supplementary' winter league where the teams can open or opt out of and their deposit is safe if they don't make it through the winter as costs are mental over the winter for a lot of teams.

 

This is literally just rattled off the top of my head so feel free to destroy it! 

[jaggyness]

5 hours ago, Spyro said:

I think it's time for the SAFA to shit or get off the pan. The whole system needed an overhaul 20 years ago but we still sleepwalk into the same old every season.

I would get rid of the 'Saturdays' and 'Sunday' stuff and have team make their availability know, and fixtures arranged around this. 

The old format of Divisional League over 1 year with a few cups added on can be completely spun on its head too. This would make more meaningful games while also giving a bit of flexibility. 

I would have the leagues more fluid, so that new team aren't massicaring a league for a whole season, just to fold the next season. 

I would also have a SUBSTANTIAL deposit set for all new teams to complete the season to stop this constant folding/reforming that some teams do. 

Players who can't commit or wish to play as trailists will need to registered as 'unassigned' with the league, but the rules around using trailists would be massively opened up.

Maybe a summer league that teams must commit to and will be the main focus, but the league should also run a 'supplementary' winter league where the teams can open or opt out of and their deposit is safe if they don't make it through the winter as costs are mental over the winter for a lot of teams.

 

This is literally just rattled off the top of my head so feel free to destroy it! 

I like a lot of this but the off season for the pyramid clubs is now so short and councils like to close their pitches over the summer, is a summer league viable? 

[Dev]

Has anyone really sat down i.e. at the SFA, let alone at the SAFA, and looked at what has been happening let alone make a plan about how to deal with it? It's their responsibility after all.

There are a number of issues which have been brought up on this and other forums. Some include:

[a] Shortage of people to run clubs (and leagues/cups?)

The intro of substitutes into the game at amateur level. To take advantage of this teams use or can use more than the 11 needed to field a team. This automatically reduces the maximum number of teams that can play, just do the maths. At amateur level I argue that the numbers of subs needs to be reduced so that players are free-ed up to play for other teams for the season and this could help sustain other clubs which are struggling to get enough players in order to keep going.

[c] The cost of playing matches e.g. pitch hire etc.

[d] Playing amateur matches on Saturday afternoons when there's lots of alternatives for players at that time on Saturdays, including spending time with family etc. Saturday morning and Friday evenings football seems not to be suffering as much in this way as Sat pm football?

[e] Playing amateur football leagues/cups in Summer rather than in the Winter. Councils close down pitches in Summer but presumably the reason is that they need time to repair/re-seed the pitches after the damage caused by playing in Winter? Due to weather pitches can be damaged just as easily outside the Winter but, at least, that would be in seasons where the grass is growing  and response to pitch treatment is quicker due to warmer weather. In Summer more matches could be played in the evenings.

[f] In the west there are competing Saturday pm leagues i.e. over-lapping the areas which they cover so increasing travel time/costs for no particular good reason.

 

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Dev
.

[Spyro]

10 hours ago, jaggyness said:

I like a lot of this but the off season for the pyramid clubs is now so short and councils like to close their pitches over the summer, is a summer league viable? 

It would have to start at the top, this would have to be address but as Dev has said below, the grass parks get destroyed over the winter so need to recover over the summer. Play the games in the summer and the park doesn't get as damaged, albiebt it's recover over the winter when most teams use 3g parks anyway. 

 

8 hours ago, Dev said:

Shortage of people to run clubs (and leagues/cups?)

Maybe they aren't asking the right people. Only so many mates you can ask before you need to clear out the old guard and put guys that are willing TO WORK towards fixing the mess, not just treading water. 

8 hours ago, Dev said:

At amateur level I argue that the numbers of subs needs to be reduced so that players are free-ed up to play for other teams for the season and this could help sustain other clubs which are struggling to get enough players in order to keep going.

This is where a more open 'trailist' market would help greatly. It's amateur league, people's jobs aren't at stake... If a player plays 3 games of 1 team, 4 for another and 2 for another due to work/education relocations and commitments, then so be it. Who is it harming?

I can already feel the old guard and mangers having a nervous breakdown over this! "How can he play 2 games for them then a title decider...."

"Shut up and play football, Pep"

8 hours ago, Dev said:

Playing amateur matches on Saturday afternoons when there's lots of alternatives for players at that time on Saturdays, including spending time with family etc. Saturday morning and Friday evenings football seems not to be suffering as much in this way as Sat pm football?

All teams would have a group of games they are expected to complete by a certain date. You can play Sunday, Monday night, Friday Morning, whatever both teams can agree to... You'll be surprised at how more efficient this could be with the correct PLANNING and contingencies in place. 

 

8 hours ago, Dev said:

In the west there are competing Saturday pm leagues i.e. over-lapping the areas which they cover so increasing travel time/costs for no particular good reason.

The whole make up of the Central belt needs looks at, like I said, maybe even reinvent the divisional structure that has been the norm for 100 years now and no-one has thought of updating would be a start. Early season regional playoffs (separate the new, strong teams from the cannon fodder), a short league campaign, then a bells and whistles playoff format that ALL teams are involved with regional, national trophies on over at different levels 

[stanley]

Well, they are certainly going to be forced to do something about the leagues in the west whether they like it or not.

From 228 clubs across seven leagues in 2013-14 (Caley, Central Scottish, Scottish Amateur, Greater Glasgow, Paisley, North & South Lanarkshire, Paisley, West of Scotland) to just 79 clubs across three leagues in 2023-24 (Caley, Scottish Premier, Greater Glasgow). There won't be many clubs left between the leagues in a few years time. On top of that, the Stirling & District league has just 12 clubs left and is struggling to survive (even taking in clubs from Fife and West Lothian in summer 2023). The bigger leagues like Caley and Scottish Premier can barely even take in new clubs from struggling local leagues now as almost all of them have folded. 

Equally worrying is the LEAFA plumeting in numbers from 73 in 2013-14 to 44 in 2022-23 and now down another 10 to just 34 in 2023-24. At the current rate of decline, some of the Saturday afternoon leagues will be struggling to even survive at all in another ten years time.

Edited October 26, 2023 by stanley

[Spyro]

20 hours ago, jaggyness said:

I like a lot of this but the off season for the pyramid clubs is now so short and councils like to close their pitches over the summer, is a summer league viable? 

Actually reminds me, I'm still waiting to find out who to speak to about booking a park in West Lothian... this was over 2 years ago! A friend and myself tried for days calling the council, sports centres and the local community council and no one could tell us who was responable. The park still gets cut but the changing rooms will be ruined by years of no one using the place, we did offer to tidy them up if they were salvageable but got a complete wall of silence from all quarters and just gave up. 

Things like this need to be sorted across the whole area. Local councils seem to have punted the problem onto whoever runs the sports centre, but the whole process is a mess. 

[ahemps]

A few years ago on BBC Radio Scotland I heard a guy from Scottish rugby saying they had put out an opinion survey to the youth and amateur clubs and were going through the feedback to try and grow the game. They mentioned this is something they do every so often and try and implement the popular suggestions.

Has the SFA ever done anything like this for youth or amateur football? It seems such an obvious thing to do and if there is massive support for certain aspects then do them.

[Crazy Feet]

You could talk all day about all the various issues but I think the main problems are:

 

1) Too many teams and not enough willing participants - simple supply and demand.

2) Lack of flexibility in the afternoon set up. The Central and Caley were always the top leagues and have been for a generation but times change and move on, and unfortunately they haven't adapted with the times. I suspect within 5 years the SMAFA will be the strongest amater league in Scotland.

3) There are still a lot of players who want to play football but they don't want to waste their whole Saturday Afternoon every single week. Morning football and Friday night football is still thriving.

4) West of Scotland League has had an impact too - where decent (not even top) amatuer players can get a couple of quid for playing in a glorfied amateur league.

I think the horse might have already bolted for the afternoon leagues. At least the GGPL is trying to adapt by bringing in a morning league next season.

Edited October 27, 2023 by Crazy Feet

[Spyro]

Who is actually in charge of amateur football in Scotland? 

Plenty of committees upon committees, all full of people who are scared/or workshy for change. I hear the "why don't you offer to help" being said a lot, but what's the point joining a committee of committees that are full of people happy with the status quo? Nothing will ever change unless the ENTIRE system is ripped up and restarted from scratch with a proper plan of action and the right people to make it happen.

The current leaders have been allowed to fly into the sun for too long now

[Redondo]

I dont think the SFA are interested in Amateur football, its not on the pyramid so is it really a big loss to them if it falls by the way side.

Not sure anyone has the answer to salvaging the game from where it is now. The drop in teams will continue sadly.

[Dev]

4 hours ago, Spyro said:

Who is actually in charge of amateur football in Scotland? 

Plenty of committees upon committees, all full of people who are scared/or workshy for change. I hear the "why don't you offer to help" being said a lot, but what's the point joining a committee of committees that are full of people happy with the status quo? Nothing will ever change unless the ENTIRE system is ripped up and restarted from scratch with a proper plan of action and the right people to make it happen.

The current leaders have been allowed to fly into the sun for too long now

The Scottish Amateur FA runs Amateur football and is part of the SFA. It isn't a separate organisation at all.

1 hour ago, Redondo said:

I dont think the SFA are interested in Amateur football, its not on the pyramid so is it really a big loss to them if it falls by the way side.

Not sure anyone has the answer to salvaging the game from where it is now. The drop in teams will continue sadly.

The SFA has shown little or no interest apart from the provision of Grant Aid opportunities via a Trust etc, which is really beneficial. Sadly there is no holding the SFA to account over the decline which has been happening for a number of years - speeded up by Covid. The Covid issue should have got the SFA off it's rear end but, as far as I can see anyway, there is no caring or urgency from the ultimate boss i.e. the SFA.

[HibeeJibee]

While not vital to the key issue - is worth recalling some amateur football (in effect) is run by Welfare FA, not SAFA.

I think 1 or 2 amateur leagues also recently started U21 sections or tried to?

[Spyro]

14 minutes ago, HibeeJibee said:

While not vital to the key issue - is worth recalling some amateur football (in effect) is run by Welfare FA  not SAFA.

I think 1 or 2 amateur leagues also recently started U21 sections or tried to?

I think some leagues are doing good things and are trying to evolve, in spite of the lack of leadership from the top. The whole system is hopelessly disjointed though as under 21 teams have been a black hole for players for decades now... we all know there's a 'gap' and we are losing players but nobody at the top has tried to address it or are too worried about upsetting the applecart. It shouldn't be left to individual leagues to have ANOTHER set of rules. 

On the other hand local leagues (especially the more rural areas) need to be run with a degree of independence to deal with their own unique situations. 

Outwith the Central belt nonsense, I actually believe the leagues are doing an amazing job with the tools they have to work with. It's the 100 year old rulebook/traditions that needs to be retired, put in a museum, preserved and then completely rewritten for the 21st century.

The player registration situation has always been a dark art, and this season has crept into the pyramid. This alone is a reason for fans to takes notice and ask "wtf is going on" 

 

EDIT: Sorry for preaching but this subject gets me angry. It's the same problems since I was at school and everyone under the ages of 30 at the time saw coming a mile off.

Edited October 27, 2023 by Spyro

[Redondo]

I personally dont see the benefit or how having a 21s team/league benefits the Amateur game. The under 20s development league has hurt the Amateur game so why would Amateur associations think starting these leagues is going to help?

After under 19s lads are old enough to go into the Amateur game in my opinion.

[Crazy Feet]

10 hours ago, Redondo said:

I personally dont see the benefit or how having a 21s team/league benefits the Amateur game. The under 20s development league has hurt the Amateur game so why would Amateur associations think starting these leagues is going to help?

After under 19s lads are old enough to go into the Amateur game in my opinion.

When I heard The Caley were bringing in the U21 set up with dual contracts etc I thought they were going to have their 21s games on a Friday night. What's the point in having dual contracts if the teams are playing on the same day!?

You could have 21s games on Friday night then the ams drafting boys in on a Saturday afternoon to beef the squad up if required like the 20s/Juniors do.

There is no modern thinking or common sense at the top of the amateur game unfortunately.