Wee Bully Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 On 21/08/2023 at 14:19, Wee Bully said: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucia_de_Berk Interesting (and very similar) case from the Netherlands which was overturned some years later. Use of statistics on when the nurse was on shift and comments in her diary. Of course, if some people had their way, that nurse would have been kicked to death / starved to death / otherwise killed. 15 hours ago, The DA said: I read the New Yorker article online there. A bit of eye-opener. If all you had to go on was that article, you'd have trouble finding her guilty. This page is also interesting: https://gill1109.com/2023/05/24/the-lucy-letby-case/. I'm assuming there'll be an appeal. I called this at the time - the emotion of murdered babies seems to get in the way of actual, non-circumstantial, evidence. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hk blues Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 5 minutes ago, Wee Bully said: I called this at the time - the emotion of murdered babies seems to get in the way of actual, non-circumstantial, evidence. Circumstantial evidence is pretty damning when there's enough of it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee Bully Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 Just now, hk blues said: Circumstantial evidence is pretty damning when there's enough of it. It can also help you to jump to conclusions that aren’t actually warranted. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hk blues Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 1 minute ago, Wee Bully said: It can also help you to jump to conclusions that aren’t actually warranted. Coupled with the diary entries and numerous hospital records found in her room, I'd say the circumstantial evidence was just a part of the picture rather than all of it. In isolation perhaps each element is insufficient to satisfy the test but added together? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee Bully Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 53 minutes ago, hk blues said: Coupled with the diary entries and numerous hospital records found in her room, I'd say the circumstantial evidence was just a part of the picture rather than all of it. In isolation perhaps each element is insufficient to satisfy the test but added together? Maybe, maybe not. I refer you back to the Lucia De Berk case which is very similar. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hk blues Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 1 minute ago, Wee Bully said: Maybe, maybe not. I refer you back to the Lucia De Berk case which is very similar. Yes, there are similarities without doubt but I'm not sure that a miscarriage of justice in one case where the evidence was based on statistical data and diary entries suggests the same miscarriage of justice in another based on similar types of 'evidence.' Each case has to be judged on its own merits. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHF-23 Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 (edited) 4 hours ago, ICTChris said: I haven’t read the Nee Yorker article, I will though. I’ve seen some people mention that the article misses some of the evidence used to convict Letby. The evidence in the case was very complicated - statistical evidence on the likelihood of fatal events, medical evidence about what actually happened to the victims. It was presented over almost a year. I suspect that any article isn’t going to cover the breadth of the case. It doesn't mention her having documents relating to the deceased, although my understanding now is that this was amongst other documentation of patients which had no adverse outcomes, and was just randomly stored in her flat rather than held as trophies as was suggested at the time. I could be wrong about that point and I could be unaware of some other evidence that isn't mentioned. Like the scrawled diary entry or the searching for parents on Facebook at the same time as over 2000 other people, it could point to an extremely dedicated professional attempting to process serious stress and trauma (and tbf committing data breaches). Now I feel that may be a charitable reading but to me it's no less probable than the idea that this was all a sign of serial killer like attributes. On your second point I'd say you're right to doubt the full span of evidence would be captured but the article concentrates largely on and paints an extremely alarming picture of statistical evidence that was both materially wrong and sampled inappropriately, and of extremely questionable expert evidence on the part of the main (I'm not sure if there were multiple) medic speaking for the prosecution. Edited May 15 by GHF-23 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nkomo-A-Gogo Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 It was the wee letters they found in her house saying things like "note to self, must stop killing babies" and "whit am I like eh? So evil" that convinced me she was guilty. Now if it turns out those were just jokes I could be swayed to innocent. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd_is_God Posted May 15 Share Posted May 15 10 hours ago, Wee Bully said: I called this at the time - the emotion of murdered babies seems to get in the way of actual, non-circumstantial, evidence. This is a fair point. I've no idea if she did it or not but I imagine it must be incredibly difficult for a jury to be truly impartial in a case like this. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 14 hours ago, Todd_is_God said: This is a fair point. I've no idea if she did it or not but I imagine it must be incredibly difficult for a jury to be truly impartial in a case like this. I really don't fancy a jury trial, if the circumstances ever happen. There's far too many lazy, thick, biased people around. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTG Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 New Yorker article https://archive.ph/AWpyz#selection-2285.1-2285.342 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee Bully Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 16 minutes ago, HTG said: New Yorker article https://archive.ph/AWpyz#selection-2285.1-2285.342 Jesus. If that is accurate, the statistical analysis on which the case was based looks massively flawed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottsdad Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 2 hours ago, Wee Bully said: Jesus. If that is accurate, the statistical analysis on which the case was based looks massively flawed. reading the article, if anything, confirms the suspicions. She works nights, and babies die on her shifts. They move her to days. Babies die during the days, on her shifts. No deaths when she isn't there. Then this Quote The police spent the day searching her house. Inside, they found a note with the heading “NOT GOOD ENOUGH.” There were several phrases scrawled across the page at random angles and without punctuation: “There are no words”; “I can’t breathe”; “Slander Discrimination”; “I’ll never have children or marry I’ll never know what it’s like to have a family”; “WHY ME?”; “I haven’t done anything wrong”; “I killed them on purpose because I’m not good enough to care for them”; “I AM EVIL I DID THIS.” 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RH33 Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 It cherry picks the narrative the journalist wants. Which isn't unusual. There's been activists claiming she's scapegoat from get go. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bennett Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 If she is found to be innocent, she'll be due a hell of a lot of compensation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottsdad Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 26 minutes ago, bennett said: If she is found to be innocent, she'll be due a hell of a lot of compensation. eventually https://www.theguardian.com/law/article/2024/may/11/andrew-malkinson-compensation-food-bank 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alert Mongoose Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 2 hours ago, scottsdad said: reading the article, if anything, confirms the suspicions. She works nights, and babies die on her shifts. They move her to days. Babies die during the days, on her shifts. No deaths when she isn't there. Then this Tbf those could equally be the frantic scribblings of someone with mental heath issues and blaming herself even if they weren't her fault. Logic can go out of the window at that stage. I guess it's down to interpretation of lots of information. I've no idea whether the verdict is correct or not. It does show, again, the shambles of Tory austerity when you read about the situation in the hospital. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee Bully Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 8 hours ago, scottsdad said: reading the article, if anything, confirms the suspicions. She works nights, and babies die on her shifts. They move her to days. Babies die during the days, on her shifts. No deaths when she isn't there. Then this Tell me you didn’t read the article, or at least past half way. There were incidents when she wasn’t on, which were left out of the model. There were others where she wasn’t anywhere near, but because she was on shift were co7nted against her. This is an absolute tragedy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The DA Posted May 24 Share Posted May 24 Her request for an appeal has just been rejected. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9773l3qzl4o Anyone know what the grounds for the appeal were? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergeant Wilson Posted May 24 Share Posted May 24 1 minute ago, The DA said: Her request for an appeal has just been rejected. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9773l3qzl4o Anyone know what the grounds for the appeal were? Says she didn't do it 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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