Slavery - Reparations

[coprolite]

Some UN judge guy has come up with a figure of £19tn that the UK owes to various countries as compensation for slavery. 

I assume that it's relatively common ground that slavery is and was "a bad thing." I also assume that no one here has ever owned a slave. 

If we were to divert our entire aid budget to paying this we'd have it settled by about 3700. The UK's net assets are estimated to be about £11tn and annual government income about £1tn. So that level of payment is clearly not happening. 

Bit what about in principle? 

Should we acknowledge by making a payment that the institutions and capital base that allow us to be a first world country (mostly) were funded partly by depriving people of their liberty? 

Or should we just accept that times have changed and move on? 

 

[Barry Ferguson's Hat]

We did host the Commonwealth Games, in fairness.

[welshbairn]

It took till 2015 for Britain to finally pay off the loan they took out to compensate slave-owners for abolishing slavery.

[oneteaminglasgow]

Yes, we definitely should be paying reparations. People in Britain continue to benefit from the legacy of slavery, and people in many countries continue to suffer from its legacy too. 

And while we’re at it, the British Museum should be giving back all the stuff we stole. 

[Lofarl]

We were all slaves of the Romans at one point.  We should all just sue Italy.

[Richey Edwards]

31 minutes ago, Lofarl said:

We were all slaves of the Romans at one point.  We should all just sue Italy.

That was OldCo Italy though.

[Donathan]

49 minutes ago, oneteaminglasgow said:

Yes, we definitely should be paying reparations. People in Britain continue to benefit from the legacy of slavery, and people in many countries continue to suffer from its legacy too. 

And while we’re at it, the British Museum should be giving back all the stuff we stole. 

 

The bolded part is a decent idea IMO

 

Reparations? Not for me. No one alive today in the UK was a slave owner. It would be absolutely ridiculous for the current generation of Brits to have to suffer financial penalties on behalf of our ancestors. It's the equivalent of throwing someone in jail because you found out his great great great grandfather was a serial killer.

[Jacksgranda]

10 minutes ago, Donathan said:

 

The bolded part is a decent idea IMO

 

Reparations? Not for me. No one alive today in the UK was a slave owner. It would be absolutely ridiculous for the current generation of Brits to have to suffer financial penalties on behalf of our ancestors. It's the equivalent of throwing someone in jail because you found out his great great great grandfather was a serial killer.

If you don't want them, I'll take your share.

[oneteaminglasgow]

1 minute ago, Donathan said:

It would be absolutely ridiculous for the current generation of Brits to have to suffer financial penalties on behalf of our ancestors. 

The point is that Brits (and people in many other western nations) benefit massively today from abhorrent things our ancestors did, while people in other countries suffer massively from those same things.

I don’t really think ‘it’s not our fault’ stands up as an argument as to why that imbalance shouldn’t be redressed a bit. 

[coprolite]

4 minutes ago, oneteaminglasgow said:

The point is that Brits (and people in many other western nations) benefit massively today from abhorrent things our ancestors did, while people in other countries suffer massively from those same things.

I don’t really think ‘it’s not our fault’ stands up as an argument as to why that imbalance shouldn’t be redressed a bit. 

Most of our ancestors didn't do those abhorrent things though. Most of most people's ancesteors would have been subsistence farmers or manual workers, possibly even indentured themselves, throughout the whole transatlantic slave period.

Maybe we've benefitted from the surplus created by slave labour to the extent any of it was spent on philanthropy or to the debatable extent that trickle down benefits the wider economy. But most of the proceeds remain embedded in the ersatz classical columns of crumbling country piles or recycled in offshore trusts for family office investments. 

How much do you think you owe? 

[Michael W]

£19tn and assets of only £11tn? Sounds like a great opportunity to accept the reparations, declare bankruptcy as we can't pay and Newco it, complete with a new flag and slightly different name. We can then blame the wrongs on the old country and deny the history. When the furore all dies down, we revert to the old name and bring back the fleg. 

Problem solved. @Rishi DM me for my invoice. 

Edited August 31, 2023 by Michael W

[Granny Danger]

If we’re going to make people pay for the ‘sins of the fathers’ I would rather that we started with all the c***s that own vast tracts of lands in Scotland that were stolen from the people and that they still own today.  Included in that we should look at the actions of the present royal family’s land appropriation and their inherited wealth.

 

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by Granny Danger

[ICTChris]

I also think that reparations should start with me.

[D Angelo Barksdale]

I think there's a case for reparations, but I'd be strongly against ordinary folk footing the bill for the abhorrent behaviour carried out in 'our name' by the British establishment.

 

[oneteaminglasgow]

1 hour ago, coprolite said:

Most of our ancestors didn't do those abhorrent things though. Most of most people's ancesteors would have been subsistence farmers or manual workers, possibly even indentured themselves, throughout the whole transatlantic slave period.

Maybe we've benefitted from the surplus created by slave labour to the extent any of it was spent on philanthropy or to the debatable extent that trickle down benefits the wider economy. But most of the proceeds remain embedded in the ersatz classical columns of crumbling country piles or recycled in offshore trusts for family office investments. 

How much do you think you owe? 

I think that’s all valid points. I suppose I’m meaning ancestors in a more broad, societal sense rather than direct family which maybe isn’t the way to view it. 

i think that, as far as I’m concerned, the moral case for the British government paying reparations is simple and met, but that the practicalities around it is more difficult I suppose.

It seems to me that, once again, rounding up all the rich and taking their stuff back is the only solution. 

[The Other Foot]

I'm the most disgustingly liberal, painfully open-minded, wishy washy Guardian reader you'll see this side of Islington, but... 

 

Reparations can't work. 

 

I mean, the UK could feasibly give money to try and make up for the horrors of slavery. But a) it wouldn't do any good. And b) the logic implies that whoever we give the money to will then have to give it to the people who they enslaved previously. And within this lies the question - how do we define the groups who were enslaved, and do they still relate to those who were originally persecuted against? 

 

For example. If we give £1b to Mali as reparation, to what extent is the current benefactor (the Government of Mali) responsible for making reparations to the peoples of neighbouring countries for the enslavement of their people during the reign of the Malian Empire? Despite the Malian empire having once extended into these countries. It's a fucking mess, is what it is. 

Edited August 31, 2023 by The Other Foot

[LongTimeLurker]

Where do you drawn the line on this stuff? Should I receive compensation because I am a descendant of coal miners who lived in serfdom in Scotland in the 1700s? Plenty of people had an atrocious life in the UK back when that was all unfolding. Thing is though they are not around to be directly compensated and the people who are didn't have those life experiences and only heard about those things as a folk memory. If you can show that specific families or institutions in the UK benefited in ways that became intergenerational down to the present day and suggest they should be dispossessed of some of their ill-gotten gains and that funds generated in that manner should be redirected towards deserving causes across the former Empire including some at home then I am definitely listening. The Royal Family might be a good place to start, but strangely King Charles is usually quite evasive on this subject:

 

[Sherrif John Bunnell]

Getting the Elgin Marbles retunred home would be a good start. They would look great in the town hall.

 

 

[RuMoore]

2 hours ago, coprolite said:

How much do you think you owe? 

There's a brilliant episode of Atlanta that takes place in the US in a world where the courts are essentially demanding people pay reparations. 

Would recommend anyone to watch it just for a laugh, about 30 mins long and is a stand alone so you don't need to know anything about the series. Some very funny concepts and wider commentary at play. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Big_Payback_(Atlanta)#:~:text=The episode focuses on a,the protagonist of the episode.

[Granny Danger]

2 hours ago, ICTChris said:

I also think that reparations should start with me.

I agree.

 

 

 

 

 

How much can you afford?