France (A) - Tuesday 17/10/23

[Ewanandmoreagain]

1978 - up and coming anglos midfielders               were ignored in favour of ageing anglo midfielders.

Andy Gray was a great player but , iirc , Derek Johnstone was still hitting the back of the net frequently

[Captain_Sensible]

39 minutes ago, Ewanandmoreagain said:

1978 - up and coming anglos midfielders               were ignored in favour of ageing anglo midfielders.

Andy Gray was a great player but , iirc , Derek Johnstone was still hitting the back of the net frequently

Derek Johnstone was scoring goals frequently in that era….. in Scotland!

Joe Harper was 30 and on the decline. He’d had 2 failed attempts in English football by then.

Andy Gray was joint winner of England's golden boot in 77. His 29 goals helped Villa to a fourth-place finish and victory in the League Cup, and earned him the PFA Young Player of the Year and PFA Players' Player of the Year awards, a double matched by Cristiano Ronaldo in 2009 and Gareth Bale in 2013. At the time he was the youngest player to earn the Players' Player of the Year award, and the first player to win more than one of the official three player of the year awards in the same season.

But he wasn’t even good enough to make the squad.

Ian Wallace hit 20 league goals with Coventry in 77/78, he was third top scorer in England along with Dalglish.

Didn’t make the squad

Two strikers at their peak in England but not good enough for the 78 WC squad

No wonder we bombed 

[TPAFKA Jersey 2]

I’ll confess to not having read the more recent pages, but I’ve been a wee bit surprised at the level of negativity on this thread.

Let’s not forget that this was effectively a Scotland B team away to an arguably full strength best team in Europe. When I saw the two lineups, I seriously feared that this could’ve been a humiliating humping with us barely getting out of our own penalty box.

In the end, I think these largely second string guys really stepped up and put in a really competitive performance, with the ultimate difference being France’s massively superior firepower. We caused them some genuine problems and on another night, with better composure and decision making, we could’ve scored a few goals. In short, I was very pleasantly surprised by last night’s performance.

Also seems to be a bunch of people suggesting we have been outclassed in our last 3 games. Totally disagree with that. Anyone suggesting we were outclassed by Spain in my opinion either didn’t watch the game, or doesn't understand football. As for the England game, I’d agree we “appeared” to be outclassed on the night, but I’d argue that was just as much down to our team inexplicably not turning up on the night. By our standards we were very poor and had the team that for example beat Spain turned up that night, I believe the game would’ve been a lot closer. Last night for me was the only game of the 3 where we were truly outclassed. What I mean by that is the Scotland team that took the field played just about as well as I believe they could play under the circumstances, but were still truly outclassed by a vastly superior team. We are not yet ready (and may never be ready) to compete with a top class, completely flying team like the current France team.

I see zero shame in that.

Edited October 18, 2023 by TPAFKA Jersey 2

[Ewanandmoreagain]

5 hours ago, Captain_Sensible said:

Derek Johnstone was scoring goals frequently in that era….. in Scotland!

Joe Harper was 30 and on the decline. He’d had 2 failed attempts in English football by then.

Andy Gray was joint winner of England's golden boot in 77. His 29 goals helped Villa to a fourth-place finish and victory in the League Cup, and earned him the PFA Young Player of the Year and PFA Players' Player of the Year awards, a double matched by Cristiano Ronaldo in 2009 and Gareth Bale in 2013. At the time he was the youngest player to earn the Players' Player of the Year award, and the first player to win more than one of the official three player of the year awards in the same season.

But he wasn’t even good enough to make the squad.

Ian Wallace hit 20 league goals with Coventry in 77/78, he was third top scorer in England along with Dalglish.

Didn’t make the squad

Two strikers at their peak in England but not good enough for the 78 WC squad

No wonder we bombed 

I do not think we bombed because Gray and Wallace were omitted

although it was probably a mistake ( I am sure Derek Johnstone scored a few goals for the national team though ).

Dalglish and Jordan did o.k.

Ally stuck with Masson and Rioch at least one , iirc , said they were off form in 1978.

We also bombed because of 

1 ) the management

2 ) the Willie Johnstone drugs affair

 

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Ewanandmoreagain

[TPAFKA Jersey 2]

6 minutes ago, Ewanandmoreagain said:

I do not think we bombed because Gray and Wallace were omitted

although it was probably a mistake ( I am sure Derek Johnstone scored a few goals for the national team ).

Dalglish and Jordan did o.k.

Ally stuck with Masson and Rioch at least one , iirc , said they were off form in 1978.

We also bombed because of 

1 ) the management

2 ) the Willie Johnstone drugs affair

 

 

Not to mention both Gordon McQueen and Danny McGrain being massive losses to injury.

[kingjoey]

2 hours ago, Captain_Sensible said:

Derek Johnstone was scoring goals frequently in that era….. in Scotland!

Joe Harper was 30 and on the decline. He’d had 2 failed attempts in English football by then.

Andy Gray was joint winner of England's golden boot in 77. His 29 goals helped Villa to a fourth-place finish and victory in the League Cup, and earned him the PFA Young Player of the Year and PFA Players' Player of the Year awards, a double matched by Cristiano Ronaldo in 2009 and Gareth Bale in 2013. At the time he was the youngest player to earn the Players' Player of the Year award, and the first player to win more than one of the official three player of the year awards in the same season.

But he wasn’t even good enough to make the squad.

Ian Wallace hit 20 league goals with Coventry in 77/78, he was third top scorer in England along with Dalglish.

Didn’t make the squad

Two strikers at their peak in England but not good enough for the 78 WC squad

No wonder we bombed 

Derek Johnstone was an absolute haddie and Joe Harper was a goal machine. 

[Willie adie]

7 hours ago, Stardog_champion said:

It still can’t believe Alan Rough was the best we had back then. Angus Gunn will learn from this. He’s only really been tested 3 times, and that’s against 3 of the best teams in the world. Spain, England and France. 

He wasn't , certainly not in the 80s

Billy Thomson, Leighton, for two should have been regulars ahead of that clown

[Willie adie]

6 hours ago, Captain_Sensible said:

He wasn’t.

Scots keepers playing in England were largely overlooked (as indeed were outfield players) in favour of Rough.

David Harvey was part of the great Leeds sides of the early 70s. He was Scotland’s keeper at the 1974 WC Finals and voted keeper of the tournament. He was injured in a car crash in 1975 and was never picked for Scotland again - despite going to make 130 appearances for Leeds in the top flight (and this covered the 78 WC finals where he was only aged 30 and Rough was a disaster).

Jim Blyth was 23 at the 78 WC Finals and was second choice behind Rough. He was part of a quality top flight Coventry side, so much so that Man United tried to sign him for a then world record transfer fee for a keeper in 1979. It fell through when he failed a medical due to a suspect back. He made 151 top flight appearances for Coventry before transferring to Birmingham City where he suffered a bad injury, fracturing his firearm in 3 places which would eventually curtail his career. Only capoed twice.

George Wood, 103 appearances for Everton, 60 for Arsenal, 192 for Crystal Palace. Only capped 4 times and went to the 82 WC Finals as a back up keeper. Would have been 26 at the 78 WC Finals (Rough was 27). Wood was a regular at Everton then but wasn’t even in the squad.

As I say though, it wasn’t just keepers. Strikers like Andy Gray and Ian Wallace, at their peak and scoring regularly in England’s top flight were ignored in favour of ageing home based strikers like Joe Harper and Derek Johnstone.

Alan Hansen was ignored for the squad despite winning the European Cup with Liverpool. Tam Forsyth was a starter

John McGovern, league and European Cup winning captain at Nottingham Forest won zero caps. 

Don't start me , I have a whole list of players overlooked

[Alan Twelve]

9 hours ago, Captain_Sensible said:

he suffered a bad injury, fracturing his firearm in 3 places

Fingers crossed that doesn't happen to Angus Gunn.

[KingRocketman II]

8 hours ago, Willie adie said:

He wasn't , certainly not in the 80s

Billy Thomson, Leighton, for two should have been regulars ahead of that clown

[BukyOHare]

On 17/10/2023 at 23:54, craigkillie said:

We played an elite team five days ago and competed well against them.

No denying we didn't compete well but we could've been two down in the 1st half as well remember.

There's also a growing argument for saying Spain are no longer classed as one of the elite teams.

Their passing style and lack of end product gets trumped by teams who play with genuine pace and can hurt you in the final third, like a France or dare I say it, England.

 

 

[HuttonDressedAsLahm]

8 minutes ago, BukyOHare said:

No denying we didn't compete well but we could've been two down in the 1st half as well remember.

There's also a growing argument for saying Spain are no longer classed as one of the elite teams.

Their passing style and lack of end product gets trumped by teams who play with genuine pace and can hurt you in the final third, like a France or dare I say it, England.

 

 

Spain are reverting to type it seems - certainly towards the Spain that I grew up with in the 90s and the 00s.  Nice to watch, with some talented players, but pretty toothless and would usually go out of tournaments at the quarter final stage.  Morata is just nowhere near the level of Villa, Raul or Torres.  Equally, Rodri is the only player who wouldn't look out of place in that Barcelona team.  Pedri/Gavi etc will no doubt be fantastic players, but they aren't there yet.

Whilst they have some exceptional youngsters, the team of 2008-2014 could be entirely named by just about anyone.  Nowadays, most people would struggle to name more than a handful of the entire squad.

Same observation of Italy, Holland, Germany, and Belgium.  Entire squads made of relatively inexperienced or non-household names.  France and England are levels above them all right now.

[2426255]

Apologies if this has already been raised earlier, but on reflection I think part of reasoning behind playing Jack Hendry on the right hand side of the back-3 is because he had experience of playing against Mbappe while at Club Brugge which could be helpful on that side.

When I saw the team lines I thought it was a little odd that Hendry was playing on the right, but just assumed it was necessary to get both Cooper and McKenna in the team and he's played there before plenty. Later in the game I thought it was more odd that when John Souttar came on Hendry stayed on the right while Soapy played in the centre, but after thinking about it a little more the fact Hendry had played against Mbappe before probably had something to do with it.

Quote

Yeah we'll keep that in house, but from a personal point of view obviously I've played against him before, I had that experience. He's one of a number of top players France have got within their squad so it will be a great test for ourselves.

Jack Hendry

https://x.com/ScotlandSky/status/1713982718227202534?s=20

 

[Ewanandmoreagain]

13 hours ago, Alan Twelve said:

Fingers crossed that doesn't happen to Angus Gunn.

Cracker !

[craigkillie]

2 hours ago, BukyOHare said:

No denying we didn't compete well but we could've been two down in the 1st half as well remember.

There's also a growing argument for saying Spain are no longer classed as one of the elite teams.

Their passing style and lack of end product gets trumped by teams who play with genuine pace and can hurt you in the final third, like a France or dare I say it, England.

 

 

France and England are currently the best two in Europe on form, but Spain won the Nations League just a few months ago, and have won basically every single competitive game they've played since the World Cup apart from the defeat to us, so I'd they are definitely still amongst the small group of elite European nations.

Edited October 19, 2023 by craigkillie

[BukyOHare]

17 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

France and England are currently the best two in Europe on form, but Spain won the Nations League just a few months ago, and have won basically every single competitive game they've played since the World Cup apart from the defeat to us, so I'd they are definitely still amongst the small group of elite European nations.

For me you have France and England then a sizeable gap to the next best in Europe.

If the game was won on possession and passes Spain would indeed then be classed as elite.

Pace, genuine attacking threat in the final third and an abundance of strength in depth is what, in my opinion, separates the elite from the rest.

 

 

[HuttonDressedAsLahm]

7 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

France and England are currently the best two in Europe on form, but Spain won the Nations League just a few months ago, and have won basically every single competitive game they've played since the World Cup apart from the defeat to us, so I'd they are definitely still amongst the small group of elite European nations.

The caveat would be that they won a tournament of 4 teams, of which Italy and Croatia, who are both struggling with qualifying pushed Spain close.

Those four teams were determined largely by the summer’s UNL campaign, which was a disaster for quite a number of countries.  I’m not sure we can read much into that UNL campaign, as performances there are largely not being repeated in ECQ. 

We struggled last summer over those 4 games, but we were far from alone.  Everything is of course relative, but you’ve got sides that are performing much better such as France, England, Scotland Slovakia, Albania, Romania, and Slovenia, and those doing worse or getting worse such as Netherlands, Croatia, Italy (all UNL finalists) Poland, Norway, Bosnia etc.

Of course there’s an element of variation that always occurs, but I am struck last summer about how the results didn’t follow expectations. It will all depend on draws, but I’d be surprised to see Spain do much, though they’ll likely also benefit from being bereft of high level competition since most of the major European nations are in a state of transition.

[ahemps]

34 minutes ago, BukyOHare said:

For me you have France and England then a sizeable gap to the next best in Europe.

If the game was won on possession and passes Spain would indeed then be classed as elite.

Pace, genuine attacking threat in the final third and an abundance of strength in depth is what, in my opinion, separates the elite from the rest.

 

 

I agree that England and France are top 2 just now but I don't think the gap is that big on Portugal, they are very good just now.

Momentum and form can be crucial in tournaments though, who saw Italy winning the last one by being very much the best team in it, sandwiched by 2 failed attempts at getting to the World cup? 

I also thought that Spain grew into the last Euros and gave Italy a very tough game and I remember thinking at the time they would beat England in the final such was their form.

I will never write of Germany either.

[BukyOHare]

35 minutes ago, ahemps said:

Momentum and form can be crucial in tournaments

Very true, I'd also include confidence as well and they all pretty much apply to all levels of the game.

 

[skiblue]

I'd agree England out of the three impressed. 

In a competitive match I'd think we would tighten up a bit