Who’s on the plane?

[AndrewFFC]

33 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

We're not taking 5 centre backs + Tierney AND McTominay who can drop in there in an absolute emergency. As noted earlier, if Hanley's fit then McKenna, Cooper and Souttar are competing for one spot. McKenna has it currently but will likely lose it to Cooper if he doesn't get in somebody's team regularly by the 2nd half of the season.

I don't think Armstrong's competing with Jack for a place. I don't think Armstrong's competing with anyone at all really unless Harvey Barnes declares for Scotland very soon or Ben Doak suddenly gets a LOT more first team exposure. We'll take two wider creative forward types and it will be Christie and Armstrong. Plus as recently as 18 hours ago Armstrong's created a goal for us. He's still an important part of the wider team and a regular on the pitch.

23 players barring injury ruling any out will be:

Goalkeepers - Angus Gunn, either Craig Gordon or Zander Clark, Liam Kelly

Defenders - Andy Robertson, Kieran Tierney, Aaron Hickey, Nathan Patterson, Grant Hanley, Jack Hendry, Ryan Porteous and either McKenna or Cooper

Midfielders - Calum McGregor, John McGinn, Scott McTominay, Billy Gilmour, Kenny McLean, Lewis Ferguson, Ryan Jack

Attacking midfield / link - Stuart Armstrong & Ryan Christie

Forwards - Lyndon Dykes, Che Adams and either Shankland or Brown

 

Obviously injury might rule some out and leave room for a left field selection but I don't think there's debate over much of that.

• Gordon or Clark is a decision that will effectively be made by Stevie Naismith. If Gordon's not playing he's not going. I don't think it likely Clark will go either if he's not playing. Kelly will be 3rd pick behind whichever one is playing for Hearts.
• McKenna gets the last defensive spot if he's playing somewhere. If he's not Cooper gets it (both are ahead of Souttar). If Hanley doesn't recover to the same level they'll both go instead of him.
• Obviously 3rd striker is up for grabs. Shankland's goal last night has him back in the forefront of minds which had bizarrely accelerated Brown into that role off the back of a non scoring 20 minutes against France. Nisbet's still in the mix too though. No real basis yet for suggesting Ross Stewart's anything other than an outside bet. He was behind all those others even before his long term injury.
• The one of the 23 above in most danger is probably Ryan Jack who hasn't been central to the 1st team since emergence of Gilmour combined with his own regular injuries. It could be argued we don't need both him and McLean and McLean's the more likely to be used. It's possible Jack's spot instead goes to an extra full back (Taylor or Doig) but I feel that's unlikely or an extra attacker. Either a 4th outright striker or perhaps a Doak / Barnes late runner.

If McKenna's not getting back in the Forest team (and he's 5th choice centre half there at best currently) then he needs to force a move / loan in January to keep himself in the squad. He can't go to Germany having not played for 8 months.

The goalkeeper thing could be affected by loans too. If either Clark or Gordon goes on loan to get game time in January then they might both go at the expense of Kelly. Likewise if McCrorie goes somewhere for regular football in January he maybe comes into the mix too.

If Hanley isn't fit, I wonder if he would consider Souttar ahead of McKenna or Cooper in order to have another right footed option? Is Souttar not a regular in squads when he is fit?

[Skyline Drifter]

43 minutes ago, eez-eh said:

Clark is in much better form than Kelly and was preferred to him in goal yesterday. I don’t think it’s anywhere near as clear cut as this. If Gordon comes back and plays the last 10 games of the season for example I still think there’s every chance Clark gets in the squad.

Outside of the obviously locked in regulars, presenting your thoughts on the matter as indisputable fact this far out from the tournament is a bit ridiculous.

They pretty much ARE all locked in regulars though, that's the point. People are throwing debates about that in practice don't exist. We've had a pretty settled squad of about 25 or 26 people for a while with not much movement in it (the list @2426255 posted yesterday a page back), and a handful of fringe players like McCrorie, Taylor, Shankland, Hyam, Doig, etc who get called up when there are shortages in a particular area.

I don't disagree with you that if for instance Gordon replaced Clark for the last 10 games they might both go but given Gordon's already back playing bounce games, I don't think it's massively likely he isn't in first team consideration till then. At some point within the next month or so, and certainly before the end of the January window, Naismith's going to have to decide which one is his first team keeper (unless he does something ridiculous like alternate them). At that point the other one will have to move if they seriously hope to make the squad for Germany. The most likely chance of both making it is either an injury to Kelly or Gunn, or one of Clark / Gordon being kept out by injury long enough to give both a fair run of games in the 2nd half of the season.

[JagsCG]

I’m not convinced Hanley comes straight back in even if fit and playing tbh, despite him being a ‘favourite’ of Clarke’s. 

Edited November 17, 2023 by JagsCG

[MarkoRaj]

3 hours ago, JagsCG said:

I’m not convinced Hanley comes straight back in even if fit and playing tbh, despite him being a ‘favourite’ of Clarke’s. 

Agreed. Especially with a long term injury, who knows if he'll still hit the same performance levels at his age

[Ewanandmoreagain]

O K. , you want to know about the thoughts of Tom English and Michael Stewart.

Goalies through to midfield no great surprises apart from , IIRC , MS omitting Ryan Christie

for Doak ?

Unsurprisingly perhaps both chose Lawrence Shankland.

Barnes got a mention

AND Ryan Fraser ( from Tom )

 

[JagsCG]

14 minutes ago, Ewanandmoreagain said:

O K. , you want to know about the thoughts of Tom English and Michael Stewart.

Not really.

[D Angelo Barksdale]

Did anyone who wasn't all but guaranteed a spot play their way into consideration this week ?

Not for me.

Disappointed Doig didn't get a run out, Brown never impressed and I'd have Shankland ahead of him atm.

[Jacky1990]

On 17/11/2023 at 18:42, JagsCG said:

I’m not convinced Hanley comes straight back in even if fit and playing tbh, despite him being a ‘favourite’ of Clarke’s. 

Grant Hanley is still our best out and out defender and was our best player at the last Euros in my opinion.

Argument over him or Hendry for the middle of the back three. But hes on the plane if he gets back fit and playing.

[Jacky1990]

1 hour ago, Ziggy Sobotka said:

Did anyone who wasn't all but guaranteed a spot play their way into consideration this week ?

Not for me.

Disappointed Doig didn't get a run out, Brown never impressed and I'd have Shankland ahead of him atm.

As much as I think he was a certainty anyway, Kenny McLean played in about 5 different positions over the course of the two games. That kind of versatility is great to have.

Think Taylor might have played his way out of the squad to be honest. Realistically, same with Brown.

[Scosha]

Greg Taylor was awful tonight, not great after a questionable performance in Georgia. If Clarke was happy to rotate tonight I don’t understand why Doig wasn’t given a run out. 

[Ewanandmoreagain]

On 17/11/2023 at 14:40, AndrewFFC said:

If Hanley isn't fit, I wonder if he would consider Souttar ahead of McKenna or Cooper in order to have another right footed option? Is Souttar not a regular in squads when he is fit?

Tierney , McKenna ,  Hendry , Cooper , Porteous , Souttar  ?

Yes

1 hour ago, Ziggy Sobotka said:

Did anyone who wasn't all but guaranteed a spot play their way into consideration this week ?

Not for me.

Disappointed Doig didn't get a run out, Brown never impressed and I'd have Shankland ahead of him atm.

Armstrong and McLean 

11 minutes ago, Jacky1990 said:

Grant Hanley is still our best out and out defender and was our best player at the last Euros in my opinion.

Argument over him or Hendry for the middle of the back three. But hes on the plane if he gets back fit and playing.

Agreed

8 minutes ago, Jacky1990 said:

As much as I think he was a certainty anyway, Kenny McLean played in about 5 different positions over the course of the two games. That kind of versatility is great to have.

Think Taylor might have played his way out of the squad to be honest. Realistically, same with Brown.

Agreed

[AndrewFFC]

17 minutes ago, Ewanandmoreagain said:

Tierney , McKenna ,  Hendry , Cooper , Porteous , Souttar  ?

Yes

Armstrong and McLean*

Agreed

Agreed

I think McLean was always going to be going

[Judy Murray]

I preferred when we didn’t quality and I didn’t have to hear endless debates about tHe SqUaD

[Ewanandmoreagain]

19 minutes ago, Judy Murray said:

I preferred when we didn’t quality and I didn’t have to hear endless debates about tHe SqUaD

John McEnroe 

[Ewanandmoreagain]

Actually it will probably just be Brown v. Shankland.

up for debate 

 

[Skyline Drifter]

4 hours ago, Ziggy Sobotka said:

Did anyone who wasn't all but guaranteed a spot play their way into consideration this week ?

Not for me.

 

On 17/11/2023 at 14:05, Skyline Drifter said:

We're not taking 5 centre backs + Tierney AND McTominay who can drop in there in an absolute emergency. As noted earlier, if Hanley's fit then McKenna, Cooper and Souttar are competing for one spot. McKenna has it currently but will likely lose it to Cooper if he doesn't get in somebody's team regularly by the 2nd half of the season.

I don't think Armstrong's competing with Jack for a place. I don't think Armstrong's competing with anyone at all really unless Harvey Barnes declares for Scotland very soon or Ben Doak suddenly gets a LOT more first team exposure. We'll take two wider creative forward types and it will be Christie and Armstrong. Plus as recently as 18 hours ago Armstrong's created a goal for us. He's still an important part of the wider team and a regular on the pitch.

23 players barring injury ruling any out will be:

Goalkeepers - Angus Gunn, either Craig Gordon or Zander Clark, Liam Kelly

Defenders - Andy Robertson, Kieran Tierney, Aaron Hickey, Nathan Patterson, Grant Hanley, Jack Hendry, Ryan Porteous and either McKenna or Cooper

Midfielders - Calum McGregor, John McGinn, Scott McTominay, Billy Gilmour, Kenny McLean, Lewis Ferguson, Ryan Jack

Attacking midfield / link - Stuart Armstrong & Ryan Christie

Forwards - Lyndon Dykes, Che Adams and either Shankland or Brown

 

Obviously injury might rule some out and leave room for a left field selection but I don't think there's debate over much of that.

• Gordon or Clark is a decision that will effectively be made by Stevie Naismith. If Gordon's not playing he's not going. I don't think it likely Clark will go either if he's not playing. Kelly will be 3rd pick behind whichever one is playing for Hearts.
• McKenna gets the last defensive spot if he's playing somewhere. If he's not Cooper gets it (both are ahead of Souttar). If Hanley doesn't recover to the same level they'll both go instead of him.
• Obviously 3rd striker is up for grabs. Shankland's goal last night has him back in the forefront of minds which had bizarrely accelerated Brown into that role off the back of a non scoring 20 minutes against France. Nisbet's still in the mix too though. No real basis yet for suggesting Ross Stewart's anything other than an outside bet. He was behind all those others even before his long term injury.
• The one of the 23 above in most danger is probably Ryan Jack who hasn't been central to the 1st team since emergence of Gilmour combined with his own regular injuries. It could be argued we don't need both him and McLean and McLean's the more likely to be used. It's possible Jack's spot instead goes to an extra full back (Taylor or Doig) but I feel that's unlikely or an extra attacker. Either a 4th outright striker or perhaps a Doak / Barnes late runner.

If McKenna's not getting back in the Forest team (and he's 5th choice centre half there at best currently) then he needs to force a move / loan in January to keep himself in the squad. He can't go to Germany having not played for 8 months.

The goalkeeper thing could be affected by loans too. If either Clark or Gordon goes on loan to get game time in January then they might both go at the expense of Kelly. Likewise if McCrorie goes somewhere for regular football in January he maybe comes into the mix too.

Nope. Nothing much has changed and I stand by that post from Friday. 

We now know that Clark's ahead of Kelly but he didnt do enough to nail down a place and if he loses his club place to Gordon I still expect Kelly to back up Gunn and Gordon.

We saw McKenna play twice and look decidedly rusty and certainly struggle in a four, but he was still picked ahead of Cooper. Hanley will go if he's fit.

Taylor was average across two games and reliable servant as he is, with Robertson, Tierney and Hickey all better bets at left back I think he's outside the 23 if all are fit. The fact Doig got no time at all though suggests Clarke's in no hurry to phase him out altogether though.

There's still one striker slot up for grabs. Folk were over-rating Brown off the back of a couple of chances in a 20 minute cameo v France and calling for him to start. He did, and went backwards. Now they are over-rating Shankland because he scored a close range header v Georgia. One of them will go though unless Nisbet or Stewart batters in goals in the 2nd half of the season. 

Some people were questioning Armstrong. I wasnt, I think he's a cert to go, but if there was any doubt a goal and an assist this week helps his case. 

We learned to no surprise that we're a far weaker side shorn of our 1st choice keeper and 4 of the first choice back five. This isnt a shock though. Thankfully we'd already done enough for it not to matter.

 

Edited November 20, 2023 by Skyline Drifter

[KingRocketman II]

- just to clarify, we don't yet know what the Euro 2024 squad ceiling number will be? UEFA still to decide with many observers considering it might be a return to return to 23 from 26? 

- tbh I don't see the how UEFA consider a 23 squad limit in any way improves the tournament as a spectacle (which tends to be a main consideration in tweaking rules around the edges). anyway....

- Armstrong definitely in squad even if it is 23 and even before last night. Has he ever missed a Clarke squad when not injured? 

- if it is 23, and one choice is either Brown or Shankland, then Brown the most mobile of the two and I guess that a factor. Brown the most mobile of the strike force in fact. But you do need strikers to score goals - Brown has shades of McBurnie for me though would not be too bothered by Brown's inclusion at the expense of Shankland tbh

- the back three from Hanley, McKenna, Porteous, Cooper, Tierney and Hendry; I think every combination have played together but we have never looked as shakier at the back as the last two games. A key factor for that has been the wing backs and lack of cover - particularly on the left. Tierney a definite of course (at centre half), and I think over the qualification all the above CBs deserve to be in the Euro squad. I thought McKenna's midfield interceptions last night were excellent but if he doesn't play for Forest between now and end of season he is going to be quite ring rusty....

- bottom line, bound to be injuries between now and end of season which may make a lot of this discussion redundant. Hopefully Tierney recovers and he manages to stay fit. He is such a key player for us. 

 

Edited November 20, 2023 by KingRocketman II

[Richey Edwards]

 

 

[HeartsOfficialMoaner]

I think we need a left winger. My squad would be like:

 

Keepers - Gordon/Clark/Gunn (3 players)

Def - Patterson/Hickey, Porto/Hanley/McKenna, Tierney/Robbo (7 players)

Def Mid - Jack/Gilmour McGregor/McLean (4 players)

Attack Mid - Christie/Armstrong, Ferguson/McTominay, McGinn/? (6 players)

Strikers - Shankland/Dykes/Adams (3 players)

 

[Skyline Drifter]

1 hour ago, KingRocketman II said:

- just to clarify, we don't yet know what the Euro 2024 squad ceiling number will be? UEFA still to decide with many observers considering it might be a return to return to 23 from 26?

- if it is 23, and one choice is either Brown or Shankland, then Brown the most mobile of the two and I guess that a factor. Brown the most mobile of the strike force in fact. But you do need strikers to score goals - Brown has shades of McBurnie for me though would not be too bothered by Brown's inclusion at the expense of Shankland tbh

- the back three from Hanley, McKenna, Porteous, Cooper, Tierney and Hendry; I think every combination have played together but we have never looked as shakier at the back as the last two games. A key factor for that has been the wing backs and lack of cover - particularly on the left. Tierney a definite of course (at centre half), and I think over the qualification all the above CBs deserve to be in the Euro squad. I thought McKenna's midfield interceptions last night were excellent but if he doesn't play for Forest between now and end of season he is going to be quite ring rusty....

- bottom line, bound to be injuries between now and end of season which may make a lot of this discussion redundant. Hopefully Tierney recovers and he manages to stay fit. He is such a key player for us.

As far as I know no confirmation of squad sizes but the papers have suggested it's likely to go back to 23 and there's generally some basis for that sort of comment. Someone, somewhere will have said off the record that it's the way they are thinking. If it's 26 then there's even less to debate. Add Taylor, a 4th striker (most likely whichever of Shankland / Brown isn't 3rd choice) and a left field joker pick (Harvey Barnes or Ben Doak). Or possibly a 6th centre back as you suggest but I still think that's overkill at that position when McTominay can also cover it if need be.

I'm not convinced Brown's more "mobile" than either Dykes or Adams. He's quicker if that's what you meant? Dykes will run channels all day though and Adams gets about the park too. They're all more mobile than Shankland certainly.