Who’s on the plane?

[nate]

5 hours ago, ArabFC said:

*cough* Ikechi Anya *cough*

You’re not suggesting a “bit of pace” was all that Anya possessed are you? He was a decent dribbler and crosser and chipped in with a few goals. Can’t be many Scots to have scored against the world champions either. Brown by contrast is one dimensional, if he actually has a dimension in the first place

[PSJ.84]

1 hour ago, nate said:

Can’t be many Scots to have scored against the world champions either. 

There’s at least four others 

[Ewanandmoreagain]

25 minutes ago, PSJ.84 said:

There’s at least four others 

Chalmers , Law , McCalliog , Lennox.

McKimmie ( ? )

Anya's goal was probably the best tho'

 

[andyg83]

13 minutes ago, Ewanandmoreagain said:

Chalmers , Law , McCalliog , Lennox.

McKimmie ( ? )

Anya's goal was probably the best tho'

 

Barry Ferguson 

[Richey Edwards]

James McArthur

Steven Naismith

David Goodwillie

John Collins

Edited November 22, 2023 by Richey Edwards

[Gordopolis]

Is there anyone who HASN'T scored against the world champions?

[Skyline Drifter]

3 hours ago, Gordopolis said:

Is there anyone who HASN'T scored against the world champions?

I haven't.

Though I did beat Anne Kirk at darts competitively and she was  Runner Up in the 2003 Women's World Championships. Wrong sport and she wasn't actually the world champion, and it was about 6 or 7 years later. But still......................

[JamesM82]

Arthur Graham scored in a 3-1 defeat against then-World Champions Argentina in June 1979. A game better remembered for a very young Maradona tearing us to shreds.

[Distant Doonhamer]

John Collins scored against world champions Brazil in opening match of the 1998 World Cup. Tom Boyd scored too but sadly for Brazil. 
 

Also James McArthur  v Germany in 2015. 

Edited November 22, 2023 by Distant Doonhamer

[The Minertaur]

Continuing the chat re goals v World Cup winners

1957 - we beat West Germany 3-1 with a brace from Bobby Collins and a goal from Jackie Mudie

 

[Quentin Taranbino]

Looking at all the realistic (and semi realistic) options for the remaining forward position that seems to be up in the air;

Assuming its a 23 man squad, and assuming there is no injuries to existing forward players then

Dykes, Adams and Christie (who is usually included as a forward) are on the plane. Even if Dykes and Adams blank for their clubs from now until the end of the season, I'm confident they would both still be named in the squad.

That likely leaves one remaining spot:

Lawrence Shankland - His goal and club form probably puts him in pole position if the squad was to be named right now. If he keeps club form up - he will definitely be in with a good shout.

Kevin Nisbet - Would need to start banging them in the championship to be considered. Suspect he will be there or there abouts in the friendlies next year. Hasn't had the best of starts with injuries this season.

Jacob Brown - Had a huge chance to stake his claim and didn't really take it. I like him as a player but can see him being on the very edges of the squad. However should he start firing in regular goals in the Premier League then I think he will shoot to the top of Steve Clarke's list.

Tommy Conway - Outside chance, performing well at a decent level and Clarke included him with the senior squad for training a few months ago so obviously admires him, but I suspect even if he is prolific for the rest of the season, the tournament will come too soon to break Clarke's loyalty to others.

Ben Doak - Clarke has so far resisted the temptation to call him up, next six months will be crucial for him. If he is getting regular game time for Liverpool or regular sub appearances in PL then I think he stands a great chance but wouldn't be a surprise to not see him called up.

Oli McBurnie - Hasn't been called up by Clarke since he got injured before Euros and had some off-field issues. Very unlikely to be called up, however similar to Jacob Brown, if he ends up scoring 10 goals in PL this season and becomes red hot, I suspect he would be in with a very good shout. He won't though.

Ross Stewart - Clarke likes him and had it not been for his injuries, I suspect he would have had a few more caps by now. If he can continue his Sunderland form for Southampton for rest of season, I can see him jumping over Nisbet and Shankland in the pecking order. He will be involved in friendlies for sure

Oli Burke - Next to zero chance but he has been part of Clarke's squads before and is playing at a reasonable level. He would have to hit unbelievable form for Birmingham to even be in with a chance to be involved in friendlies. His chance is gone. 

Ryan Fraser - Burnt his bridges seemingly. Although Clarke never fully shut the door, I suspect that was him being media savvy more than anything else. Loyalty and squad morale is huge for Clarke. Even blistering form wouldn't be enough I suspect to see Fraser involved.

Harvey Barnes - By all accounts the most likely of the Newcastle recruits to want to switch allegiance. If he hadn't been injured, I suspect he may well have been involved in the most recent squad which due to his quality, would make him a certainty for Euros. But....he got injured and now has to wait again. Tough to call

Anthony Gordon - Unlikely to switch allegiances and I suspect was never really going to. Paper talk to try and force his way into England squad. If he was truly committed and declared for us, he would be in the squad no questions.

 

In summary - I think if Barnes or Gordon were to declare and be involved in the friendlies next year then they would take the fourth slot quite easily. The quality upgrade for one of those is too much to ignore I believe and could make all the difference at the Euros.

Assuming neither are involved - I think the fourth slot would go to Brown or McBurnie IF (and a really big IF) one of those two hit some amazing goal scoring form in the premier league. Nothing I have seen convinces me that will happen

The likelihood is that neither Gordon nor Barnes declare and Brown/McBurnie don't turn it on in EPL - so that leaves us with the rest and I think Clarke will look to give the fourth slot to a goal scorer and the nod will go to Stewart, Shankland or Nisbet. These are the three I expect will be involved in the friendly squads and I genuinely believe it will go down to which of the three performs best in those three or four friendly games. 

Early prediction - Ross Stewart gets the spot

[Hendricks]

1 hour ago, Quentin Taranbino said:

Looking at all the realistic (and semi realistic) options for the remaining forward position that seems to be up in the air;

Assuming its a 23 man squad, and assuming there is no injuries to existing forward players then

Dykes, Adams and Christie (who is usually included as a forward) are on the plane. Even if Dykes and Adams blank for their clubs from now until the end of the season, I'm confident they would both still be named in the squad.

That likely leaves one remaining spot:

Lawrence Shankland - His goal and club form probably puts him in pole position if the squad was to be named right now. If he keeps club form up - he will definitely be in with a good shout.

Kevin Nisbet - Would need to start banging them in the championship to be considered. Suspect he will be there or there abouts in the friendlies next year. Hasn't had the best of starts with injuries this season.

Jacob Brown - Had a huge chance to stake his claim and didn't really take it. I like him as a player but can see him being on the very edges of the squad. However should he start firing in regular goals in the Premier League then I think he will shoot to the top of Steve Clarke's list.

Tommy Conway - Outside chance, performing well at a decent level and Clarke included him with the senior squad for training a few months ago so obviously admires him, but I suspect even if he is prolific for the rest of the season, the tournament will come too soon to break Clarke's loyalty to others.

Ben Doak - Clarke has so far resisted the temptation to call him up, next six months will be crucial for him. If he is getting regular game time for Liverpool or regular sub appearances in PL then I think he stands a great chance but wouldn't be a surprise to not see him called up.

Oli McBurnie - Hasn't been called up by Clarke since he got injured before Euros and had some off-field issues. Very unlikely to be called up, however similar to Jacob Brown, if he ends up scoring 10 goals in PL this season and becomes red hot, I suspect he would be in with a very good shout. He won't though.

Ross Stewart - Clarke likes him and had it not been for his injuries, I suspect he would have had a few more caps by now. If he can continue his Sunderland form for Southampton for rest of season, I can see him jumping over Nisbet and Shankland in the pecking order. He will be involved in friendlies for sure

Oli Burke - Next to zero chance but he has been part of Clarke's squads before and is playing at a reasonable level. He would have to hit unbelievable form for Birmingham to even be in with a chance to be involved in friendlies. His chance is gone. 

Ryan Fraser - Burnt his bridges seemingly. Although Clarke never fully shut the door, I suspect that was him being media savvy more than anything else. Loyalty and squad morale is huge for Clarke. Even blistering form wouldn't be enough I suspect to see Fraser involved.

Harvey Barnes - By all accounts the most likely of the Newcastle recruits to want to switch allegiance. If he hadn't been injured, I suspect he may well have been involved in the most recent squad which due to his quality, would make him a certainty for Euros. But....he got injured and now has to wait again. Tough to call

Anthony Gordon - Unlikely to switch allegiances and I suspect was never really going to. Paper talk to try and force his way into England squad. If he was truly committed and declared for us, he would be in the squad no questions.

 

In summary - I think if Barnes or Gordon were to declare and be involved in the friendlies next year then they would take the fourth slot quite easily. The quality upgrade for one of those is too much to ignore I believe and could make all the difference at the Euros.

Assuming neither are involved - I think the fourth slot would go to Brown or McBurnie IF (and a really big IF) one of those two hit some amazing goal scoring form in the premier league. Nothing I have seen convinces me that will happen

The likelihood is that neither Gordon nor Barnes declare and Brown/McBurnie don't turn it on in EPL - so that leaves us with the rest and I think Clarke will look to give the fourth slot to a goal scorer and the nod will go to Stewart, Shankland or Nisbet. These are the three I expect will be involved in the friendly squads and I genuinely believe it will go down to which of the three performs best in those three or four friendly games. 

Early prediction - Ross Stewart gets the spot

 

Interesting post and a lot of good points. 

The only thing I definitely disagree with is that I expect Barnes to take Jack's position which won't impact the 4th forward/striker. And I actually duo expect this to happen over the next few months. Just think it makes sense for both player and us. 

For me, assuming fitness, there are around 20 certainties and a couple of decisions and this is how I see things currently. 

 

Gunn

Gordon or Clark (totally dependant on what happens at Hearts!)

Kelly

 

Robertson

Tierney

Hickey

Patterson

Hanley

Hendry

Porteous 

McKenna or Cooper

 

McGregor

Gilmour

McTominay

McGinn

McLean

Ferguson 

Armstrong

Barnes

 

Dykes 

Adams

Christie 

Shankland or Stewart or Brown or Stewart or Doak

 

 

 

[Barry Ferguson's Hat]

From a purely pragmatic standpoint, it's essential that there's at least one pilot.

[Quentin Taranbino]

6 minutes ago, Hendricks said:

 

Interesting post and a lot of good points. 

The only thing I definitely disagree with is that I expect Barnes to take Jack's position which won't impact the 4th forward/striker. And I actually duo expect this to happen over the next few months. Just think it makes sense for both player and us. 

For me, assuming fitness, there are around 20 certainties and a couple of decisions and this is how I see things currently. 

 

Gunn

Gordon or Clark (totally dependant on what happens at Hearts!)

Kelly

 

Robertson

Tierney

Hickey

Patterson

Hanley

Hendry

Porteous 

McKenna or Cooper

 

McGregor

Gilmour

McTominay

McGinn

McLean

Ferguson 

Armstrong

Barnes

 

Dykes 

Adams

Christie 

Shankland or Stewart or Brown or Stewart or Doak

 

 

 

Aye, to be fair I think you are right regarding Ryan Jack, he is just unlikely to be needed. It would all depend on how far Clarkes squad loyalty reaches.

Gilmour, McGregor and McLean are all ahead of him and even though we wouldn't want them to - McTominay and McGinn can both sit deeper as well if really needed. I just can't see where Jack gets any sniff of minutes in a fully fit squad.

[2426255]

2 hours ago, Quentin Taranbino said:

Lawrence Shankland - His goal and club form probably puts him in pole position.

Kevin Nisbet - Would need to start banging them in the championship to be considered. 

Jacob Brown - However should he start firing in regular goals in the Premier League then I think he will shoot to the top of Steve Clarke's list.

Tommy Conway - I suspect even if he is prolific for the rest of the season, the tournament will come too soon to break Clarke's loyalty to others.

Oli McBurnie - if he ends up scoring 10 goals in PL this season and becomes red hot, I suspect he would be in with a very good shout. 

I think the fourth slot would go to Brown or McBurnie IF  one of those two hit some amazing goal scoring form in the premier league. 

I think Clarke will look to give the fourth slot to a goal scorer and the nod will go to Stewart, Shankland or Nisbet.

Don't agree with lots in there to be honest, but each to their own. 

On Shankland. He wasn't called up in October or originally in November and he didn't start against Georgia or even against Norway after scoring a stoppage time equaliser - so why is that? 

Scotland have adapted to be able to score without prolific strikers through necessity and so including a penalty-box striker might require a change to the team dynamic. We aren't going to build a team around Shankland or Stewart, therefore I don't think including a goal scoring striker would be anything more than what we saw in Georgia: 5 - 10 minutes remaining, we need a goal and our opposition are defending their 18 yard box - so pull the rip cord.

Quote

When you are going into the last 10 minutes, and knowing we would get a lot of injury time because Georgia spent a lot of time on the floor, we knew there was time left. We needed a goal and you know Lawrence has always got a chance of getting a goal. 

Steve Clarke

https://www.gazetteandherald.co.uk/sport/national/23929649.steve-clarke-praises-scotland-keeping-heads-late-draw-georgia/

Quote

We were looking for a goal against a team defending on their 18-yard box. I had a choice between Lawrence and Jacob Brown. If a chance is going to fall in the box, who do you want it to fall to? Probably Lawrence.

Steve Clarke

https://www.footballscotland.co.uk/spfl/scottish-premiership/lawrence-shankland-earns-scotland-attitude-28134164

I don't think there needs to be a big focus on getting strikers that score as that's our midfielders job. I think it's maybe misreading the situation to say  the striker in the best 'goal scoring form' should be called up. That's just my view, could be wrong.

 

[nate]

On 22/11/2023 at 06:02, PSJ.84 said:

There’s at least four others 

I should’ve qualified the original statement by adding …SCORED AGAINST THE REIGNING WORLD CHAMPIONS IN A COMPETITIVE MATCH (as opposed to diddy friendlies)

Anya is one of only 9 unless I’ve missed someone out. The others are…

LAW LENNOX MCCALLIOG COLLINS FERGUSON NAISMITH GOODWILLIE(!) McARTHUR

My original off the cuff statement has unintentionally got the makings of a good pub question. Your mate gets a free pint for every correct answer, but buys you a pint for every one he doesn’t know. This could be a cheap night out for you cos I don’t think anyone would get more than a couple…big spread of years in there.
If I’ve missed anyone let us know

[kennie makevin]

On 22/11/2023 at 06:32, Ewanandmoreagain said:

Chalmers , Law , McCalliog , Lennox.

McKimmie ( ? )

Anya's goal was probably the best tho'

 

John 'Yogi' Hughes , the original & best, 1968 v England.  And for the obligatory Old Firm balance, Colin Stein, 1969 v England.

[Quentin Taranbino]

8 hours ago, 2426255 said:

Don't agree with lots in there to be honest, but each to their own. 

On Shankland. He wasn't called up in October or originally in November and he didn't start against Georgia or even against Norway after scoring a stoppage time equaliser - so why is that? 

Scotland have adapted to be able to score without prolific strikers through necessity and so including a penalty-box striker might require a change to the team dynamic. We aren't going to build a team around Shankland or Stewart, therefore I don't think including a goal scoring striker would be anything more than what we saw in Georgia: 5 - 10 minutes remaining, we need a goal and our opposition are defending their 18 yard box - so pull the rip cord.

https://www.gazetteandherald.co.uk/sport/national/23929649.steve-clarke-praises-scotland-keeping-heads-late-draw-georgia/

https://www.footballscotland.co.uk/spfl/scottish-premiership/lawrence-shankland-earns-scotland-attitude-28134164

I don't think there needs to be a big focus on getting strikers that score as that's our midfielders job. I think it's maybe misreading the situation to say  the striker in the best 'goal scoring form' should be called up. That's just my view, could be wrong.

 

That's exactly what I'm saying though. Clarkes 4th forward is likely to be someone who gets 5 or 10 mins at end of the game whilst we are looking for a goal - that's why I think the spot go to whoever he believes is most likely to grab that goal.

Now, club form doesn't always translate into International form as we know but given there isn't alot to separate the options. If there is one of those players who is in red hot goal scoring form for his club in the run up the Euros, I suspect that could give them the edge for that fourth slot.

[2426255]

42 minutes ago, Quentin Taranbino said:

That's exactly what I'm saying though. Clarkes 4th forward is likely to be someone who gets 5 or 10 mins at end of the game whilst we are looking for a goal - that's why I think the spot go to whoever he believes is most likely to grab that goal.

Now, club form doesn't always translate into International form as we know but given there isn't alot to separate the options. If there is one of those players who is in red hot goal scoring form for his club in the run up the Euros, I suspect that could give them the edge for that fourth slot.

There hasn't been a history in Clarke's selections of including a fox in the box type striker who can get you a goal. I don't see why that would change because it's the Euro's. There has been a reluctance to play or call on a guy like Lawrence Shankland and before that Leigh Griffiths (maybe a slightly different scenario given his extra curricular activities) - so I don't see a strong case historically or given our attacking method for including an "in-form" goalscorer as counter-intuitive as that may sound.

As I said it's just my opinion on the situation from what I've seen, listened to and recorded and things can always change.

Edited November 23, 2023 by 2426255

[Quentin Taranbino]

1 hour ago, 2426255 said:

There hasn't been a history in Clarke's selections of including a fox in the box type striker who can get you a goal. I don't see why that would change because it's the Euro's. There has been a reluctance to play or call on a guy like Lawrence Shankland and before that Leigh Griffiths (maybe a slightly different scenario given his extra curricular activities) - so I don't see a strong case historically or given our attacking method for including an "in-form" goalscorer as counter-intuitive as that may sound.

As I said it's just my opinion on the situation from what I've seen, listened to and recorded and things can always change.

I would put Shankland, Nisbet and Stewart in the same category as a 'striker' rather than a 'forward' like Dykes and Adams I.e offers something different for a different style of play. More of a natural goal scorer. 

As your own table shows, Clarke has always called up either Shankland or Nisbet in his squads with the only exception being a period where Nisbet was injured and Shankland was languishing in Belgium. And in those cases he called up Brown/Stewart/Fraser as his fourth option before reverting back to Nisbet and Shankland as options again once they have sorted themselves out.

I'm not trying to argue with you, but I would suggest your own stats show that history DOES show that Clarke likes a different striker option more often than not.