Who’s on the plane?

[2426255]

46 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

• Hearts will effectively decide who the goalkeepers are.
• If Grant Hanley proves his fitness and plays every week for Norwich he'll be included. I still think he's Clarke's 1st choice centre back. He's not once left him out when fit. If we're accepting Porteous is a given now then McKenna, Cooper and Souttar are competing for one spot.
• Which all leaves one spot for a 3rd striker to be argued over by Brown, Nisbet and Shankland.

I agree with those points in general, the Hearts one is a good one - I hadn't really looked at it like that.

Hanley was left out/rested in the Armenia game at Hampden, however the point still stands that he is one of Clarke's favourites and if he gets himself back to what he was is a certainty for EUR-24. Maybe at the moment you could consider it as two CB's from Hanley, McKenna, Cooper and Souttar until he manages to get back playing football.

[Quentin Taranbino]

1 hour ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Hearts will effectively decide who the goalkeepers are. That and whether Craig Gordon actually wants to go (but I've seen no suggestion that he doesn't). We're not taking two Hearts keepers to Germany. If Craig Gordon comes back in the next month or two, wins his first team spot back and Clark returns to the bench then Gordon will be in the squad if he wants to be and Kelly will be the 3rd keeper (unless Clark goes out on loan in January to play games). If Clark retains his Hearts spot it finishes Craig Gordon internationally and Clark and Kelly will go as backup to Gunn assuming none are injured. McCrorie will get the shout if either of the non Hearts keepers do get injured.

If Grant Hanley proves his fitness and plays every week for Norwich he'll be included. I still think he's Clarke's 1st choice centre back. He's not once left him out when fit.

If we're accepting Porteous is a given now then McKenna, Cooper and Souttar are competing for one spot. McKenna's in pole position but so far out of the picture at Forest that he may drop behind the other two. He's not even making the bench for Forest at the moment.

Which all leaves one spot for a 3rd striker to be argued over by Brown, Nisbet and Shankland. He could take two by leaving one of Jack or McLean out but I don't expect it. We rarely play with two out and out strikers, even less likely to do so in a Finals match, and he's not taking four when Christie, Armstrong and even McGinn or McTominay can play supporting striker roles too.

Of course it's likely at least a couple of them will take decisions out of his hands by getting injured and missing the finals.

EDITED to add if there was any truth in the notion of Harvey Barnes wanting to declare for us then he's a possible shout although it probably means leaving out Armstrong. Same for Elliot Anderson I suppose but I can't see him being considered after the Cyprus squad debacle.

You forgot Jack Hendry who is ahead of McKenna, Cooper and Soutter. Not many times he has been left out by Clarke either. 

[Skyline Drifter]

5 minutes ago, Quentin Taranbino said:

You forgot Jack Hendry who is ahead of McKenna, Cooper and Soutter. Not many times he has been left out by Clarke either. 

I didn't forget him at all. He's a certainty for the squad, albeit 2nd choice behind a fit Hanley I believe. He's not in the conversation for who goes as 4th choice centre back which is why I didn't mention him.

[velo army]

Every time I see the thread title I read it in Samuel L Jackson's voice.

[MazzyStar]

Not Davie fiveheed Turnbull

[Quentin Taranbino]

Assuming Robertson, Tierney and Hickey are all fit and available - is there any fans who believe Greg Taylor should be on the plane?

Unfortunately, even though he is fourth choice left back, I suspect Clarke will reward his loyalty over the last 3 games and stick him in the squad regardless

[Tartan Dave]

Hope Patterson’s seat is refundable

[GuyIncognito]

Goalkeepers look fairly set barring any injuries.

Defenders: would stay clear of McKenna and Hanley, not bad players but not international quality. Also Doig over Taylor if there's room. Taylor miles off it.

Midfielders pick themselves really, Barnes in for Armstrong if he commits by then, and a upgrade on Jack and/or McLean if possible but no big deal if not.  

Forwards: lots to consider here. Will Doak be up to it by next summer? Where do Brown and Shankland fit in? Dykes, Adams, Christie are nailed on but rest of the spots are up for grabs imo.

[2426255]

 

2 hours ago, Quentin Taranbino said:

Assuming Robertson, Tierney and Hickey are all fit and available - is there any fans who believe Greg Taylor should be on the plane?

Unfortunately, even though he is fourth choice left back, I suspect Clarke will reward his loyalty over the last 3 games and stick him in the squad regardless

We were focusing our attacks more down the side right hand side with McGinn and Patterson so Taylor and Christie weren't as as noticeable in my opinion. Taylor is an easy target, I don't think he was great - but that's just the same as the rest of the team, no-one really stood out. I think he'll find it tough getting a place regardless of his performance tonight unless we have injuries.

1 hour ago, Tartan Dave said:

Hope Patterson’s seat is refundable

I thought Patterson was promising going forward. Yes, he wasn't great defensively - but he was up against Kvaradona and in the last match M'Bappe. That said, he looks a different player to the one that initially came through in 2021.

[Captain_Sensible]

Assuming all fit

Gunn, Kelly, Clark

Patterson, Hickey, Porteous, Hendry, Hanley, McKenna, Cooper, Tierney, Robertson

McGregor, Gilmour, McLean, McTominay, McGinn, Armstrong, Ferguson, Christie

Dykes, Adams, Doak

 

Possibly Jack instead of McLean or Cooper - but someone is bound to miss out through injury anyway

Shankland, Stewart & Conway possibilities instead of Doak or injury to the other 2 strikers 

Edit - if Barnes wants to switch when he’s fit then he’d be on the plane instead of Doak

Edited November 16, 2023 by Captain_Sensible

[Ewanandmoreagain]

2 hours ago, Captain_Sensible said:

Assuming all fit

Gunn, Kelly, Clark

Patterson, Hickey, Porteous, Hendry, Hanley, McKenna, Cooper, Tierney, Robertson

McGregor, Gilmour, McLean, McTominay, McGinn, Armstrong, Ferguson, Christie

Dykes, Adams, Doak

 

Possibly Jack instead of McLean or Cooper - but someone is bound to miss out through injury anyway

Shankland, Stewart & Conway possibilities instead of Doak or injury to the other 2 strikers 

Edit - if Barnes wants to switch when he’s fit then he’d be on the plane instead of Doak

Craig Gordon in as second choice if he is fit and getting games.

McKenna , and Cooper , need first team football 

Ryan Jack a maybe.

Brown needs to be given some game time to show what he can do. Shankland needs to be given some more game time also

 

[Stylish Kid]

R.e. Goalies, I don't think it's a done deal that there won't be 2 hearts goalies. McRorie is in the squad sometimes despite playing diddly squat for Rangers. 

 

Gordon's comeback is of huge uncertainty - the guy is 40 and will have had a year out after a bad injury. 

[Skyline Drifter]

1 hour ago, Stylish Kid said:

R.e. Goalies, I don't think it's a done deal that there won't be 2 hearts goalies. McRorie is in the squad sometimes despite playing diddly squat for Rangers. 

 

Gordon's comeback is of huge uncertainty - the guy is 40 and will have had a year out after a bad injury. 

McCrorie's not been picked unless called in due to injury though and Carver went as far as to actually namecheck Ross Laidlaw and say they considered him because McCrorie not playing games. He or Clarke (can't recall which) also said they had spoken to McCrorie about the situation of not playing games. McCrorie's been called up as much as anything for experience around the squad. As he's clearly 3rd pick they're not expecting him to play but they do have high hopes for him in the long term so there's a benefit to bringing him in over the 31 year old Ross Laidlaw for instance. There's not a chance we're taking a non playing Hearts keeper (whichever one it is) over three guys who are playing every week, assuming Kelly and Gunn are fit and playing.

I accept it's likely that if one of them isn't, and Gordon's the Hearts No 1, he'd probably pick a non playing Zander Clark over a non playing Robby McCrorie.

Gordon's comeback IS hugely uncertain of course but if he's good enough to win his place back from Clark at Hearts he'll be in the Scotland squad. If he's not then there's nothing to debate. Gunn, Clark and Kelly will be the goalkeepers. The only other potential doubt I guess is if Gordon does win his Hearts spot back but Clarke makes it clear Gunn's his No 1, will Gordon want to go to Germany as No 2?

Edited November 17, 2023 by Skyline Drifter

[parsforlife]

1 hour ago, Skyline Drifter said:

McCrorie's not been picked unless called in due to injury though and Carver went as far as to actually namecheck Ross Laidlaw and say they considered him because McCrorie not playing games. He or Clarke (can't recall which) also said they had spoken to McCrorie about the situation of not playing games. McCrorie's been called up as much as anything for experience around the squad. As he's clearly 3rd pick they're not expecting him to play but they do have high hopes for him in the long term so there's a benefit to bringing him in over the 31 year old Ross Laidlaw for instance. There's not a chance we're taking a non playing Hearts keeper (whichever one it is) over three guys who are playing every week, assuming Kelly and Gunn are fit and playing.

I accept it's likely that if one of them isn't, and Gordon's the Hearts No 1, he'd probably pick a non playing Zander Clark over a non playing Robby McCrorie.

Gordon's comeback IS hugely uncertain of course but if he's good enough to win his place back from Clark at Hearts he'll be in the Scotland squad. If he's not then there's nothing to debate. Gunn, Clark and Kelly will be the goalkeepers. The only other potential doubt I guess is if Gordon does win his Hearts spot back but Clarke makes it clear Gunn's his No 1, will Gordon want to go to Germany as No 2?

Gordon will want to go to Germany in any possible capacity without doubt. 

On McCrorie, he's 5th choice and at 25 is really going to need to do something with his career soon, he can't be reliant on potential for any longer,  kelly and gunn are at the moment possibly ahead of him for the next decade, clark for at least 4-5 years.

Can he continue to let time drift away from him and hope nobody younger comes along during that time? Doubt it.

Edited November 17, 2023 by parsforlife

[Jives Miguel]

Gunn

Hickey, Patterson, Tierney, Robertson, Porteous, Hendry

McGregor, Gilmour, McTominay, Christie, McGinn

Adams, Dykes

 

These 14 are the only absolute certainties. Then your left with the folk like McKenna, Ferguson, McLean, Taylor, Armstrong, Jack who make every squad but don't start as often as the above. The only other midfielder we've called up in the last 12 months who isn't in the squad now is Elliot Anderson, so I think you can safely say this nothing will change there. Hanley probably makes the last CB spot above Cooper, if he's fit.

I think you're really looking at the 2 other options up front, and the 2 goalies as the only positions that are truly up in the air. Gordon is a stick on if he;s fight, and Clark is clearly Clarke's pick out of the 3 we have in the squad now. So Shankland, Brown, Nisbet, Stewart and the wildcard of Doak fighting for those final 2 places.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Jives Miguel

[Stylish Kid]

Without wanting to jnx anything, the other thing is who is injured before the tournament.....

[Jaggy McJagface]

36 minutes ago, Jives Miguel said:

Gunn

Hickey, Patterson, Tierney, Robertson, Porteous, Hendry

McGregor, Gilmour, McTominay, Christie, McGinn

Adams, Dykes

 

These 14 are the only absolute certainties. Then your left with the folk like McKenna, Ferguson, McLean, Taylor, Armstrong, Jack who make every squad but don't start as often as the above. The only other midfielder we've called up in the last 12 months who isn't in the squad now is Elliot Anderson, so I think you can safely say this nothing will change there. Hanley probably makes the last CB spot above Cooper, if he's fit.

I think you're really looking at the 2 other options up front, and the 2 goalies as the only positions that are truly up in the air. Gordon is a stick on if he;s fight, and Clark is clearly Clarke's pick out of the 3 we have in the squad now. So Shankland, Brown, Nisbet, Stewart and the wildcard of Doak fighting for those final 2 places.

I agree with all of your 14 names there.

At least one of Hanley/Cooper/McKenna/Souttar is going to miss out (probably McKenna if he doesn’t start getting game time).

I think Taylor’s place will be under serious threat given Hickey can also play LB and he, Tierney and Robbo are all far better than Taylor. The only way I could see Taylor getting minutes without injuries is if we win the first 2 group games and want to rest people for the final one.

I think Ferguson and McLean are basically stick ons as Clarke clearly trusts the latter and Ferguson is a stand out player for a top half Serie A side. Armstrong is more versatile than Jack so will probably get the nod ahead of him.

I can’t see us only going with 2 strikers so one of Shankland/Brown/Stewart/Nisbet will be there.

With 3 keepers, that completes the squad (assuming all are fit).

The biggest questions for me are;

1.) Do we take 5 CB’s + Tierney or go with just 4 to make space for another full back/attacker? 

2.) Does Armstrong get dropped for a wild card in Barnes/Doak/Gordon if we do go with 5 CB’s and Doak kicks on or one of the other two decide to commit to Scotland?

[bdu98196]

Dont see Doak getting into the squad unless of injuries, even the friendlies per-tournament he may miss out. Clarke is loyal and will now stick with guys who got us there barring any major drop outs therefore probably unlikely to see Doak until next nations league or WC qualifiers.

[Skyline Drifter]

1 hour ago, Jaggy McJagface said:

I agree with all of your 14 names there.

At least one of Hanley/Cooper/McKenna/Souttar is going to miss out (probably McKenna if he doesn’t start getting game time).

I think Taylor’s place will be under serious threat given Hickey can also play LB and he, Tierney and Robbo are all far better than Taylor. The only way I could see Taylor getting minutes without injuries is if we win the first 2 group games and want to rest people for the final one.

I think Ferguson and McLean are basically stick ons as Clarke clearly trusts the latter and Ferguson is a stand out player for a top half Serie A side. Armstrong is more versatile than Jack so will probably get the nod ahead of him.

I can’t see us only going with 2 strikers so one of Shankland/Brown/Stewart/Nisbet will be there.

With 3 keepers, that completes the squad (assuming all are fit).

The biggest questions for me are;

1.) Do we take 5 CB’s + Tierney or go with just 4 to make space for another full back/attacker? 

2.) Does Armstrong get dropped for a wild card in Barnes/Doak/Gordon if we do go with 5 CB’s and Doak kicks on or one of the other two decide to commit to Scotland?

We're not taking 5 centre backs + Tierney AND McTominay who can drop in there in an absolute emergency. As noted earlier, if Hanley's fit then McKenna, Cooper and Souttar are competing for one spot. McKenna has it currently but will likely lose it to Cooper if he doesn't get in somebody's team regularly by the 2nd half of the season.

I don't think Armstrong's competing with Jack for a place. I don't think Armstrong's competing with anyone at all really unless Harvey Barnes declares for Scotland very soon or Ben Doak suddenly gets a LOT more first team exposure. We'll take two wider creative forward types and it will be Christie and Armstrong. Plus as recently as 18 hours ago Armstrong's created a goal for us. He's still an important part of the wider team and a regular on the pitch.

23 players barring injury ruling any out will be:

Goalkeepers - Angus Gunn, either Craig Gordon or Zander Clark, Liam Kelly

Defenders - Andy Robertson, Kieran Tierney, Aaron Hickey, Nathan Patterson, Grant Hanley, Jack Hendry, Ryan Porteous and either McKenna or Cooper

Midfielders - Calum McGregor, John McGinn, Scott McTominay, Billy Gilmour, Kenny McLean, Lewis Ferguson, Ryan Jack

Attacking midfield / link - Stuart Armstrong & Ryan Christie

Forwards - Lyndon Dykes, Che Adams and either Shankland or Brown

 

Obviously injury might rule some out and leave room for a left field selection but I don't think there's debate over much of that.

• Gordon or Clark is a decision that will effectively be made by Stevie Naismith. If Gordon's not playing he's not going. I don't think it likely Clark will go either if he's not playing. Kelly will be 3rd pick behind whichever one is playing for Hearts.
• McKenna gets the last defensive spot if he's playing somewhere. If he's not Cooper gets it (both are ahead of Souttar). If Hanley doesn't recover to the same level they'll both go instead of him.
• Obviously 3rd striker is up for grabs. Shankland's goal last night has him back in the forefront of minds which had bizarrely accelerated Brown into that role off the back of a non scoring 20 minutes against France. Nisbet's still in the mix too though. No real basis yet for suggesting Ross Stewart's anything other than an outside bet. He was behind all those others even before his long term injury.
• The one of the 23 above in most danger is probably Ryan Jack who hasn't been central to the 1st team since emergence of Gilmour combined with his own regular injuries. It could be argued we don't need both him and McLean and McLean's the more likely to be used. It's possible Jack's spot instead goes to an extra full back (Taylor or Doig) but I feel that's unlikely or an extra attacker. Either a 4th outright striker or perhaps a Doak / Barnes late runner.

If McKenna's not getting back in the Forest team (and he's 5th choice centre half there at best currently) then he needs to force a move / loan in January to keep himself in the squad. He can't go to Germany having not played for 8 months.

The goalkeeper thing could be affected by loans too. If either Clark or Gordon goes on loan to get game time in January then they might both go at the expense of Kelly. Likewise if McCrorie goes somewhere for regular football in January he maybe comes into the mix too.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Skyline Drifter

[eez-eh]

11 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

We're not taking 5 centre backs + Tierney AND McTominay who can drop in there in an absolute emergency. As noted earlier, if Hanley's fit then McKenna, Cooper and Souttar are competing for one spot. McKenna has it currently but will likely lose it to Cooper if he doesn't get in somebody's team regularly by the 2nd half of the season.

I don't think Armstrong's competing with Jack for a place. I don't think Armstrong's competing with anyone at all really unless Harvey Barnes declares for Scotland very soon or Ben Doak suddenly gets a LOT more first team exposure. We'll take two wider creative forward types and it will be Christie and Armstrong. Plus as recently as 18 hours ago Armstrong's created a goal for us. He's still an important part of the wider team and a regular on the pitch.

23 players barring injury ruling any out will be:

Goalkeepers - Angus Gunn, either Craig Gordon or Zander Clark, Liam Kelly

Defenders - Andy Robertson, Kieran Tierney, Aaron Hickey, Nathan Patterson, Grant Hanley, Jack Hendry, Ryan Porteous and either McKenna or Cooper

Midfielders - Calum McGregor, John McGinn, Scott McTominay, Billy Gilmour, Kenny McLean, Lewis Ferguson, Ryan Jack

Attacking midfield / link - Stuart Armstrong & Ryan Christie

Forwards - Lyndon Dykes, Che Adams and either Shankland or Brown

 

Obviously injury might rule some out and leave room for a left field selection but I don't think there's debate over much of that.

• Gordon or Clark is a decision that will effectively be made by Stevie Naismith. If Gordon's not playing he's not going. I don't think it likely Clark will go either if he's not playing. Kelly will be 3rd pick behind whichever one is playing for Hearts.
• McKenna gets the last defensive spot if he's playing somewhere. If he's not Cooper gets it (both are ahead of Souttar). If Hanley doesn't recover to the same level they'll both go instead of him.
• Obviously 3rd striker is up for grabs. Shankland's goal last night has him back in the forefront of minds which had bizarrely accelerated Brown into that role off the back of a non scoring 20 minutes against France. Nisbet's still in the mix too though. No real basis yet for suggesting Ross Stewart's anything other than an outside bet. He was behind all those others even before his long term injury.
• The one of the 23 above in most danger is probably Ross Jack who hasn't been central to the 1st team since emergence of Gilmour combined with his own regular injuries. It could be argued we don't need both him and McLean and McLean's the more likely to be used. It's possible Jack's spot instead goes to an extra full back (Taylor or Doig) but I feel that's unlikely or an extra attacker. Either a 4th outright striker or perhaps a Doak / Barnes late runner.

If McKenna's not getting back in the Forest team (and he's 5th choice centre half there at best currently) then he needs to force a move / loan in January to keep himself in the squad. He can't go to Germany having not played for 8 months.

The goalkeeper thing could be affected by loans too. If either Clark or Gordon goes on loan to get game time in January then they might both go at the expense of Kelly. Likewise if McCrorie goes somewhere for regular football in January he maybe comes into the mix too.

Clark is in much better form than Kelly and was preferred to him in goal yesterday. I don’t think it’s anywhere near as clear cut as this. If Gordon comes back and plays the last 10 games of the season for example I still think there’s every chance Clark gets in the squad.

Outside of the obviously locked in regulars, presenting your thoughts on the matter as indisputable fact this far out from the tournament is a bit ridiculous.