Germany - Scotland

[Doc Holiday]

Flower of Scotland has  always has been dour and shite , change it to yes sir I can boogie

Edited June 15 by Doc Holiday

[RandomGuy.]

10 minutes ago, RudiSkacel51 said:

I don't know if it would be possible for the SPFL to bring back the two academy graduates rule that used to be around (as in you would need to have a minimum of two players from your academy in match day squad or even in the starting line up would be better imo.

In practice all that did was prevent young players getting loan moves.

When you combine it with the best youngsters being scooped up by 17, then you're probably making the situation worse as at least two youth players nowhere near top flight level fester on your bench.

[kingjoey]

8 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

If you don't understand the difference there then you're beyond hope.

Germany have one of the greatest playmakers in footballing history in their midfield, and two generational talents out wide.

We have Tony Ralston, Ryan Porteous and Jack Hendry, trying to stop them.

Folk who are absolutely raging about this result need to take a deep breath and realise that sometimes you come up against a far better side, get it wrong, and get ridden raw, and that doesn't mean you just throw everything in the bin because its clearly not working.

Hickey, Gilmour, Dykes, we maybe see more of a fight but ultimately we just aren't good enough. The next two games need to be better and should be better, and if not then you start asking questions.

This is a German side who've beaten France twice in the past 12 months, and who scored 4 against Portugal in the last Euros, and folk are talking them down.

We all know that Germany are full of great players, but as the opposition you don't stand about admiring them. If you don't have players that are as good as your opponents, you get in their faces, loads of aggression, loads of tackles flying in. We had none of that, absolutely none, apart from that one Porteous challenge. You also need a goalkeeper with strong wrists.

[GordonS]

5 hours ago, sparky88 said:

Haha I was being sarcastic. It's the answers that comes up on here every time Scotland ship more than 2 goals in a match/ a non Old Firm team loses before the 3rd qualifying round of the Europa League. 

Sorry, in the heat of the moment I missed your point. You're 100% right. 

[vikingTON]

5 hours ago, Zen Archer (Raconteur) said:

They were still fighting the British when it was written, firstly as a poem, about a battle at Fort McHenry.

They were fighting as an independent country in the War of 1812 when it was written. 

FoS was written for a 'country' that was just about to shite the bed at the prospect of even a basic degree of self-determination. So if it's a bad anthem, it would only be fitting. 

[Gaz]

33 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Most of our young talents are in the English club youth system. Arsenal are trying to woo a 15yo at St Johnstone as an example of how they operate. 

It's up to you to decide whether that's better for their development or not, but the days of judging our youth talent by how many are playing in our top flight has been gone for the best part of a decade.

The National Team has improved significantly since the days of picking eight starters from Rangers and Celtic every match. Players who were happy to let their talent stagnate as they were pumping Ross County and Livingston every week.

[Leith Green]

1 minute ago, kingjoey said:

We all know that Germany are full of great players, but as the opposition you don't stand about admiring them. If you don't have players that are as good as your opponents, you get in their faces, loads of aggression, loads of tackles flying in. We had none of that, absolutely none, apart from that one Porteous challenge. You also need a goalkeeper with strong wrists.

I saw some stats this morning that are quite sobering - Scotland made 193 passes v Germany's 655.

Toni Kroos, a class act obviously, completed 101 passes out of 102 attempted...............but as you point out, we - to a certain extent - allowed this to happen.

I know they have better players than us, and we are missing a hell of a lot of players in key positions, but I just felt we almost accepted our fate from the 10th minute on.

We never looked like getting anything out the game, but Porteous utterly ridiculous tackle just made sure just before half time - the erse.

[GordonS]

5 hours ago, tamba_trio said:

I dunno, I can see why Flower of Scotland is particularly cringe. When the US (for example) sing about independence, it kinda works (because they are independent). We start belting out how we’ve fought and died for “yer wee bit hill and glen”, when, in reality, we’re a bunch of cowards who are happy to doff our cap to the Union Jack and accept whatever scraps our overlords throw to us. Fought and died? 55% of us found putting a tick in a box too stressful.

So, whilst I still get a bit goosepimply at the song, I can see why some might find it a bit cringe. The song suggests that we are a proud nation, whilst reality suggests something very different.

With regards to why are we so shite, I think there’s a couple of reasons. At youth level, we’re still favouring strong, tall kids over skilful. There’s a short-termism to the entire game here (coaches would rather a successful youth team, than one which develops players). And how many of us knew incredibly talented young guys who were utter wazoos and, predictably, pissed it all away?  I don’t think teams are proactive enough at saving those guys from themselves.

And our teams don’t produce enough. Look at Celtic - the most resources in the land, title winners basically every year. A team that could have their pick of youngsters. And the last proper striker they brought through their ranks who managed to start 50 games for them was Gerry Creamey, 30 years ago.

 

The first verse of Flower of Scotland is about winning at Bannockburn and winning the wars of independence. Absolutely classic territory for a national anthem and I'm bewildered when people say it's about defeat. Have they totally missed the point and the words and think it's about Culloden? The reference to wee bit hill and glen is another typical reference to 'our land'.

It's very notable that we sing the third verse too - how many other countries sing more than one verse before matches? That puts history in the past and says we can rise and be the nation again. I think it's really rousing and find it incomprehensible when it's described as cringe. Really, all anthems are a bit cringe. The United Kingdom's anthem is mortifying. Fellas, yer King is safe, no need to ask God to help too.

Agree with you on youth football. Celtic let Andy Robertson go FFS. They did bring through Forrest, Tierney and McGregor but it's a poor haul considering their dominance. 

[DeeTillEhDeh]

9 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

If you don't understand the difference there then you're beyond hope.

Germany have one of the greatest playmakers in footballing history in their midfield, and two generational talents out wide.

We have Tony Ralston, Ryan Porteous and Jack Hendry, trying to stop them.

Folk who are absolutely raging about this result need to take a deep breath and realise that sometimes you come up against a far better side, get it wrong, and get ridden raw, and that doesn't mean you just throw everything in the bin because its clearly not working.

Hickey, Gilmour, Dykes, we maybe see more of a fight but ultimately we just aren't good enough. The next two games need to be better and should be better, and if not then you start asking questions.

This is a German side who've beaten France twice in the past 12 months, and who scored 4 against Portugal in the last Euros, and folk are talking them down.

 

Setting up as he did last night made the job a lot easier for the Germans.

Sitting way too deep.

The freedom of the Allianz Arena down the flanks because of the narrow 4 man midfield.

Zero protection from said midfield to support the defence.

Lumping the ball up to the 5'9" Adams against the 6'3" Rudiger and 6'5" Tah.

Zero support for Adams from the midfield.

No-one is denying that it was always going to be hard but those tactics were just appalling.

Add to that our players collectively did not turn up and it was a recipe for disaster.

I'm not calling for Clarke's head - but I hope he learns from this for the next 2 games. 

 

Edited June 15 by DeeTillEhDeh

[Dons_1988]

Not offering any analysis as I was a few pints deep. But that was a very sobering performance. 

I’ve been fairly relaxed about the run of friendlies that we’ve had but I was quite shocked at just how poor we were last night. Yes, Germany were very good but that was so, so poor. 

[GordonS]

1 hour ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

 

Players coming through?  There are a hardly any club level players coming through.  Just look at the numbers of Scottish U21s getting regular game time at Scottish Premiership level, it's a handful, literally 3 or 4.  

One of the most damning things about our game is that about 60% of the players in our top national league are non-Scots and how many of them are playing at these Euros?  That's right exactly 0.  To borrow a phrase from The Thick of It, our top league is 'stuffed to the gills with dreck' because most teams aren't interested in developing talent.  They want it cheap and easy.  

Even now we are pretty close to asking supporters to bring boots to fill some positions but the really scary thing is most of our best players are around their peak now so when guys like Robertson or McGinn retire there is no one close to that level to replace them.

As bad as that was last night the Scottish national team is going to be in a record bad place in the 2030s.  At this point we might as well forget youth coaching and concentrate on scouring Ancestry.com for Scottish grand dads.

Agreed. I'm just enjoying this spell and going over for the next two games to have a good time. It's not likely to be the start of anything meaningful.

BTW I followed the women to the 2019 World Cup and had high hopes for their future, but when Weir and Cuthbert follow Kim Little into retirement we'll be struggling. There are some very good players like Sam Kerr but not many and they're not nearly as good as those we need to replace.

Our whole youth football landscape is filled with good, well-intentioned, hard-working and caring people who sacrifice a lot to help our kids but who have no idea and no interest in learning from other countries.

[pozbaird]

Flower of Scotland and the amazing ‘away support’ were the highlight of the night. Then the game started. When are Italy on? Now, that’s an anthem. I haven’t Googled this, but aren’t the words of the Italian anthem something along the lines of ‘Italy, my brothers, get right intae’ these kunts and kick their fcuking arses’.

Pretty sure that’s it.

[Doc Holiday]

Id have stuck McTominay up top next to Adams or Shankey,

[rollstar]

Whether or not FoS is the right song to play before games, It's just crossed my mind that people might be getting mixed up about Scottish "Flower" songs.

"Flowers of the Forest" is undoubtedly about a defeat, that of Flodden in a one-off battle in 1513, which was fought as part of a geo-political alliance with France.

"Flower of Scotland" doesn't mention Flodden at all, it's about the wars of (regaining) Scottish independence in the 1300s, which were undisputedly won by Scotland.

[BukyOHare]

 

14 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

 

Setting up as he did last night made the job a lot easier for the Germans.

Sitting way too deep.

The freedom of the Allianz Arena down the flanks because of the narrow 4 man midfield.

Zero protection from said midfield to support the defence.

Lumping the ball up to the 5'9" Adams against the 6'3" Rudiger and 6'5" Tah.

Zero support for Adams from the midfield.

No-one is denying that it was always going to be hard but those tactics were just appalling.

Add to that our players collectively did not turn up and it was a recipe for disaster.

I'm not calling for Clarke's head - but I hope he learns from this for the next 2 games. 

 

Spot on.

I think most could accept being beaten by Germany but it's the manner of last night that hurts so much more. I truly applaud the fans out there who still had a party post match. 

I'd love to know how the days, weeks and months of scouting Germany and putting together a plan to make it difficult for them and to try and be a modicum of threat ourselves ended up with last nights showing.

Sadly, it was amateurs against professionals from the first whistle. 

"Respect everyone, fear no one" was Clarke's mantra pre match. Highly commendale and applaudable, you've got to back that sort of talk up though. Especially when it was very clear early on that above all else we did fear and feel inferior to them all over the pitch.

2 games to put things right is what we've all got to cling onto. Im looking forward to seeing them this afternoon to see what we're going to be up against.

 

Edited June 15 by BukyOHare

[GordonS]

Anyone who thinks Flower of Scotland is bad should ask people from other countries what they think about it. In rugby it's often ranked as the best anthem, even over the French and Italian.

The lyrics to the Italian anthem are cheesy AF and the whole "We are ready to die" thing is pretty laughable before a football game. It's fun to sing loudly though.

[BukyOHare]

We've got far bigger things to worry about than the anthem we sing pre match.

[vikingTON]

Just now, GordonS said:

Anyone who thinks Flower of Scotland is bad should ask people from other countries what they think about it. In rugby it's often ranked as the best anthem, even over the French and Italian.

 

[RandomGuy.]

24 minutes ago, kingjoey said:

We all know that Germany are full of great players, but as the opposition you don't stand about admiring them. If you don't have players that are as good as your opponents, you get in their faces, loads of aggression, loads of tackles flying in. We had none of that, absolutely none, apart from that one Porteous challenge. You also need a goalkeeper with strong wrists.

That's all meaningless though. You watch Musiala for Bayern and there's players going in shin high on him, and two men on him, and he still gets through. Kroos has spent his whole career the same way.

If you go aggressive and pressing then you're effectively going 1v1 too, which is what I think Clarke wanted to avoid as our defence can't do that.

12 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

 

Setting up as he did last night made the job a lot easier for the Germans.

Sitting way too deep.

The freedom of the Allianz Arena down the flanks because of the narrow 4 man midfield.

Zero protection from said midfield to support the defence.

Lumping the ball up to the 5'9" Adams against the 6'3" Rudiger and 6'5" Tah.

Zero support for Adams from the midfield.

No-one is denying that it was always going to be hard but those tactics were just appalling.

Add to that our players collectively did not turn up and it was a recipe for disaster.

I'm not calling for Clarke's head - but I hope he learns from this for the next 2 games. 

 

Yeah he got it wrong. I'd have started Gilmour instead of McTominay to at least try and keep the ball. But we've an issue where Germany can sacrifice their right side to stunt our left, and a midfielder to stunt McGregor (or Gilmour), and then that's us done while they still carry threats.

There's a difference between top teams in qualifying (when they know there's multiple chances), and the sudden death nature of competition football. I don't think that's appreciated enough so people are comparing apples and oranges. If we met Spain in this they'd look a different side. 

[GordonS]

Just now, BukyOHare said:

Salmond, Sturgeon and now Swinney might say differently........

Sent them homewards (to Bute House) tae think again.

 

You do get that it's King Edward II being sent homewards to think again, right?

For years the SFA refused to use Flower of Scotland because they saw it as too much in support of independence. They stuck with Scotland the Brave, which is a truly awful bit of doggerel written by an Evening Times columnist. Donnie Munro wouldn't sing the third verse of Flower of Scotland at Hampden.

Fun fact, Edward II apparently died thanks to having a red hot poker rammed up his jacksie.