10 Years Ago

[TheScarf]

The pension angle was the biggest load of shite ever. A simple ‘well why do Shug and Senga in Santa Ponsa still get their UK state pension?’  had/has Unionists flapping.

[Alan Twelve]

4 minutes ago, TheScarf said:

The pension angle was the biggest load of shite ever. A simple ‘well why do Shug and Senga in Santa Ponsa still get their UK state pension?’  had/has Unionists flapping.

The UK Treasury actually released a statement before the referendum to clarify that anyone who'd contributed to a UK pension would receive a UK pension, and the noes still lied about it. Honestly, if you need to use arguments that you know not to be true, you should be having a frank conversation with yourself about your politics.

[TheScarf]

5 minutes ago, Alan Twelve said:

The UK Treasury actually released a statement before the referendum to clarify that anyone who'd contributed to a UK pension would receive a UK pension, and the noes still lied about it. Honestly, if you need to use arguments that you know not to be true, you should be having a frank conversation with yourself about your politics.

That was Better Together to a tee; lying, scaremongering morons.

[I Clavdivs]

1 hour ago, Chapelhall chap said:

I voted Yes in 2014 and would do so again but the English constitution will never allow the close contest to be revisited. I think we had our chance but that's it. 

And just adds fuel to the arguement that the " union of equals"  is a sham when one side dictates if and when the other "partner "can decide to leave or not. 

Edited yesterday at 18:31 by I Clavdivs

[Black_and_White_Stripes]

8 minutes ago, TheScarf said:

That was Better Together to a tee; lying, scaremongering morons.

Lying, aye. However, frightening folk is actually a very good way to preserve the status quo, "You can keep things as they are, or you can take a gamble, and possibly lose everything!" 

[CarrbridgeSaintee]

10 hours ago, Black_and_White_Stripes said:

I've got an interest in Irish history, and it's interesting to see how the independence movement took off there. Obviously, there are big differences - Irish independence was partly inspired by the historical persecution of Catholics by the British state (and particularly Cromwell); the Famine was a stark reminder of the indifference to, or even contempt towards, the Irish people, and saw the population decimated; Irish Republicanism was revolutionary and the martyrs of 1916 in particular galvanised the movement.

However, what lots of people forget is that nationalists emphasised and romanticised Irish culture and language, known as the Gaelic Revival. In particular the Gaelic Athletic Association and the Irish language were heavily promoted, along with socialist politics and the Catholic Church (which was particularly important to De Valera). We live in a very different world now, but still, I wonder whether similar things can be done in Scotland with Gaelic* and, erm, shinty? 

What is the purpose of Scottish independence? Is for economic purposes? A vehicle to establish a socialist Republic? To re-assert Scottish identity? Simply self-government, because the British state has had its day and is no longer necessary or relevant? To re-join the EU?

I suspect most people have their own vision of what an independent Scotland would be and it's currently an umbrella movement that encompasses lots of disparate groups.

 

* It seems to me, and it is only my opinion, that whilst lots of Gaelic speakers are nationalists, some aren't and would be annoyed by the politicisation of the language.

Very interesting post bud.  It’s a weird one with Gaelic IMO.

Whilst it’s absolutely a language of Scotland, it’s not the language of Scotland, and acting like it is seems inauthentic.  It has simply never been a thing in large parts of the nation.

Likewise with Shinty.

It doesn’t mean I don’t like these things though.. I’d be devastated if they died out.  I also feel massively Scottish.

For me, identity and culture are more important than the economy and/or political systems.  For this reason, I have huge sympathy for dyed in the wool Nationalists who simply want their country to be ‘free’.

I see it differently though, as I see Britain and Britishness as being a country and identity too, which can be backed up far more historically than just from the Act of Union.

Edited yesterday at 18:20 by CarrbridgeSaintee

[Granny Danger]

38 minutes ago, I Clavdivs said:

And just adds fuel to the arguement that the " union of equals"  is a sham when one side dictates if and when the other "partner "can decide to leave or jot. 

Imagine the stereotypical English mentality.

Now imagine if numerically the number of Scots and English who inhabit Great Britain was reversed.

Does anyone genuinely think English people would not want independence?
 

Edited yesterday at 18:22 by Granny Danger

[Groundhopping Adventures]

34 minutes ago, Black_and_White_Stripes said:

Lying, aye. However, frightening folk is actually a very good way to preserve the status quo, "You can keep things as they are, or you can take a gamble, and possibly lose everything!" 

See Lex, several times in this very thread

[Lurkst]

54 minutes ago, TheScarf said:

That was Better Together to a tee; lying, scaremongering morons.

Just imagine Better Together 2, in a post-Trump, post-Bojo political culture 

 

[A Diamond For Me]

1 hour ago, I Clavdivs said:

I think the subject here is the right and/or need for National Self determination and not strictly Identity .

For the record:

 

 

Oh, I get that - and I have a fair amount of sympathy for it.  What puzzles me is the people who oppose independence because their British identity is important to them.  Why does that identity need to a state to validate and sustain it?  Would their Britishness just vanish upon the issuing of a Scottish passport?  Would they not be able to enjoy Shakespeare anymore just because they don't have the same passport design as David Cameron? 

[invergowrie arab]

33 minutes ago, CarrbridgeSaintee said:

Very interesting post bud.  It’s a weird one with Gaelic IMO.

Whilst it’s absolutely a language of Scotland, it’s not the language of Scotland, and acting like it is seems inauthentic.  It has simply never been a thing in large parts of the nation.

Likewise with Shinty.

It doesn’t mean I don’t like these things though.. I’d be devastated if they died out.  I also feel massively Scottish.

For me, identity and culture are more important than the economy and/or political systems.  For this reason, I have huge sympathy for dyed in the wool Nationalists who simply want their country to be ‘free’.

I see it differently though, as I see Britain and Britishness as being a country and identity too, which can be backed up far more historically than just from the Act of Union.

Which large parts of the country was Gaelic never thing?

To save you time if the answer isn't the northern Isles and Roxburghshire you are wrong.

[Wee-Bey]

If Scotland becomes independent, you'll be arrested and thrown in jail simply for saying you're British.

[Lurkst]

25 minutes ago, A Diamond For Me said:

What puzzles me is the people who oppose independence because their British identity is important to them.  Why does that identity need to a state to validate and sustain it?  Would their Britishness just vanish upon the issuing of a Scottish passport?  Would they not be able to enjoy Shakespeare anymore just because they don't have the same passport design as David Cameron? 

I'm not sure what their answer to those questions would be, but there's a fair chance it would end with 'WATP'.

 

 

Edited yesterday at 19:10 by Lurkst

[I Clavdivs]

4 minutes ago, Cheese said:

If Scotland becomes independent, you'll be arrested and thrown in jail simply for saying you're British.

Yeah,we'd also be more susceptible to alien Invasion without England's skirt tails for protection and would probably have our runways bombed by England in the event of an emergency....all for our own protection of course .

[carpetmonster]

2 minutes ago, I Clavdivs said:

Yeah,we'd also be more susceptible to alien Invasion without England's skirt tails for protection and would probably have our runways bombed by England in the event of an emergency....all for our own protection of course .

Kilts with no underwear would probably see their probing production trebled vs down south. 

[I Clavdivs]

29 minutes ago, A Diamond For Me said:

 

 

Oh, I get that - and I have a fair amount of sympathy for it.  What puzzles me is the people who oppose independence because their British identity is important to them.  Why does that identity need to a state to validate and sustain it?  Would their Britishness just vanish upon the issuing of a Scottish passport?  Would they not be able to enjoy Shakespeare anymore just because they don't have the same passport design as David Cameron? 

I beleive they would have a right to an  rUK passport if they so desired along with a Scottish passport.Through time and passing generations this conundrum would evaporate.Shakespeare was mostly interested  in the human condition and transcends national identity so could be enjoyed by all .

[I Clavdivs]

4 minutes ago, carpetmonster said:

Kilts with no underwear would probably see their probing production trebled vs down south. 

Indeed.

[CarrbridgeSaintee]

34 minutes ago, invergowrie arab said:

Which large parts of the country was Gaelic never thing?

To save you time if the answer isn't the northern Isles and Roxburghshire you are wrong.

Looks like your time saving measure has come up short  

Parts of Ayrshire and Lothian too.

[GNU_Linux]

If yes had won how much more lost would Effie Deans be by now?

[Wee-Bey]

Post 2014 I don't think either side have learned much from the referendum, except the No side's extreme reluctance to even entertain any dialogue on having another one for obvious reasons.

The SNP subsumed the broader movement, it became very top down and the whole idea was put into a vehicle for SNP electoral dominance for a decade, with next to nothing in return except an enabling of a host of elected and non elected public purse parasites and calls for 'one more push' and 'it's just round the corner, one more election bro, honest'. Very telling that support for independence remains the same, but support for the SNP and party membership has taken a big hit recently.

The British State continues to lurch from crisis to crisis, much of which is their own doing, with public services deteriorating and scandal ridden, hollowed out institutions. Still nothing in the way of any type of vision for the future beyond Boris Johnson's 'levelling up' (a cruel hoax deliberately left vague so the press could attach their own thoughts to what it would mean like 'eleventy new hospitals' or a 'Northern Powerhouse') and Keir Starmer's 'Change' (the guy at the top will be wearing a different coloured tie)