Rugby Union

[Mark Connolly]

Lawes lucky not to get a yellow there

[Ginaro]

Still struggling to get over the fact we didn't score a try here

[aDONisSheep]

Tackle laws are overly fussy.  Another game ruined on a marginal at best decision.

[peasy23]

Still struggling to get over the fact we didn't score a try here

Harris doesn't even need to pass it there never mind miss 2 guys out.

[Mark Connolly]

Italy have been absolutely shafted here.

[Left Back]

Never seen a team end up with 12 men before.

[John Lambies Doos]

Georgian referee mmmmmm

[Savage Henry]

34 minutes ago, Left Back said:

Never seen a team end up with 12 men before.

^^^ Frank Hadden started games with 12 players, to be fair. 
 

[aDONisSheep]

On 26/02/2022 at 17:37, Donathan said:

I’m not a huge rugby fan from the point of view that I can’t quite explain the ins and outs of what on earth is going on in the rucks/scrums/mauls and why certain penalties are given, but I do enjoy watching the Scotland games and other internationals.

 

Can one of you who understands the game better explain something to me. It seems to me that us conceding 12 penalties today was a pretty major factor in the fact we received such a pumping. Could we not have just, erm, not broken the rules on those 12 occasions? Or were those rule breaks the only thing preventing them running in more tries anyway? 

Much easier said than done.  There is a lot that goes on at the breakdown, particularly around the tackle and forming rucks and mauls.

If you're the tackler, you've got to worry about tackle height and the possible off-load, the length of time you hold on (too short and player is not held, too long and it's a penalty for not releasing and rolling away).

If you're the ball carrier, you've got to worry about retaining and presenting the ball, but not to be seen to be 'holding on' to stop the opposition from getting on the ball.

If you're the jackler, you've got to make sure that you're seen as first to the ball (assuming you're not the tackler who has to be seen to have released and gone back in for the ball), and that no ruck has formed.  You have to be seen as supporting your own body weight, which means that you can't slightly over-balance and put a hand on the ground to support you even for an instant (although technically you can put a hand on the ground if you're actually supporting your own weight).  The French got away with one that led to a try when the jackler went down on one knee for an instant, but got up and continued to compete (and won the ball).  And you have to do all of this when one, two or maybe even three other players are about to smash into you trying to clear the ruck.

Then you get the guys securing the ruck.  Their job is to stop the jacklers and secure the ball.  This can be done, by being first to the tackle area in which case they must bind with their own player, but remain on their feet (otherwise it's a penalty for sealing off).  If they are clearing out, they have to "come in through the gate' bind and drive their opponents (the jackler) off the ball.  The ruck also establishes the offside lines for both teams who fan across the pitch, and encroaching on the gap is a penalty.

You've also got to look at the manner of how the ruck is cleared.  A drive through is fine, a roll is fine, but a 'neck role' isn't. 

All of this happens in probably under a second, and the chances of it all happening in a pristine manner is remote.  The referee can only adjudicate on what he sees and on whether he thinks the offence is impacting ability to play.  As a couple of examples of why he may not penalise a penalisable offence 1)  If the clear-out player goes off his feet because the jackler moves away.  The ref might well ignore it, because the defending team has given up on winning the ball.  2) If the tackler is not rolling away from the tackle because the ref thinks he's being pinned in by the attacking team.

Unfortunately for us, Scotland got on the wrong side of Dickson at the weekend.  It's up to Scotland to adapt to him and his interpretation, not the other way around.

Oh, and if you could be bothered reading all that, my apologies for me being such a rugby nause!

Yours

aDONis

[peasy23]

Italy have been absolutely shafted here.

Seen a few reds recently for challenges not too unlike this one, yet this wasn't even looked at. Have thought for a while that Italy get the shitty end of the stick when it comes to decisions.

[aDONisSheep]

5 minutes ago, peasy23 said:

Seen a few reds recently for challenges not too unlike this one, yet this wasn't even looked at. Have thought for a while that Italy get the shitty end of the stick when it comes to decisions.
 

The tackle laws are a mess and ruining the game.  The referees are bound by the protocols and if this gets picked up I can't see why it wouldn't be a red.

I switched off after the Italian Red yesterday.  What's the fvking point of watching a training run.  God help those that spent $$$$s on attending that farce!

I'm convinced the IRFU are running scared of a class action.

I think that a 10 or 20 min penalty for both tackles would have been sufficient, but the referees have no real discretion at the moment.  It very quickly escalates from penatly to yer-off.

Yours

aDONis

[Mark Connolly]

There’s part of me that agrees with a lower sanction being enough for a lot of these tackles, but equally the whole point of it is to get players to lower the tackle height to avoid contact with the head.

The big problem is that even with their frameworks that are there to provide consistency, officials are still “interpreting” certain challenges, which means guys still aren’t changing behaviour. They shouldn’t just be looking at the point of contact, they should be looking at the angle as well. The whole “initial contact under the shoulder but slid up” is nonsense. A guy aiming to hit the top of the chest but hitting up is always going to make contact with the head, yet often he gets a lower sanction than a guy who was initially lower but makes straight contact on someone who dips

[Donathan]

3 hours ago, aDONisSheep said:

Much easier said than done.  There is a lot that goes on at the breakdown, particularly around the tackle and forming rucks and mauls.

If you're the tackler, you've got to worry about tackle height and the possible off-load, the length of time you hold on (too short and player is not held, too long and it's a penalty for not releasing and rolling away).

If you're the ball carrier, you've got to worry about retaining and presenting the ball, but not to be seen to be 'holding on' to stop the opposition from getting on the ball.

If you're the jackler, you've got to make sure that you're seen as first to the ball (assuming you're not the tackler who has to be seen to have released and gone back in for the ball), and that no ruck has formed.  You have to be seen as supporting your own body weight, which means that you can't slightly over-balance and put a hand on the ground to support you even for an instant (although technically you can put a hand on the ground if you're actually supporting your own weight).  The French got away with one that led to a try when the jackler went down on one knee for an instant, but got up and continued to compete (and won the ball).  And you have to do all of this when one, two or maybe even three other players are about to smash into you trying to clear the ruck.

Then you get the guys securing the ruck.  Their job is to stop the jacklers and secure the ball.  This can be done, by being first to the tackle area in which case they must bind with their own player, but remain on their feet (otherwise it's a penalty for sealing off).  If they are clearing out, they have to "come in through the gate' bind and drive their opponents (the jackler) off the ball.  The ruck also establishes the offside lines for both teams who fan across the pitch, and encroaching on the gap is a penalty.

You've also got to look at the manner of how the ruck is cleared.  A drive through is fine, a roll is fine, but a 'neck role' isn't. 

All of this happens in probably under a second, and the chances of it all happening in a pristine manner is remote.  The referee can only adjudicate on what he sees and on whether he thinks the offence is impacting ability to play.  As a couple of examples of why he may not penalise a penalisable offence 1)  If the clear-out player goes off his feet because the jackler moves away.  The ref might well ignore it, because the defending team has given up on winning the ball.  2) If the tackler is not rolling away from the tackle because the ref thinks he's being pinned in by the attacking team.

Unfortunately for us, Scotland got on the wrong side of Dickson at the weekend.  It's up to Scotland to adapt to him and his interpretation, not the other way around.

Oh, and if you could be bothered reading all that, my apologies for me being such a rugby nause!

Yours

aDONis

Very helpful. Thanks very much. 

[peasy23]

Two of the teams trying to get promoted to the Gallagher Premiership have been told their grounds aren't up to scratch. Lot of comments on social media about it, particularly in regards to how Bath meet any sort of standards at The Rec.

Doncaster have hosted the Premier 15s final recently while Ealing regularly host Women's internationals.

[Genuine Hibs Fan]

19 hours ago, peasy23 said:

Two of the teams trying to get promoted to the Gallagher Premiership have been told their grounds aren't up to scratch. Lot of comments on social media about it, particularly in regards to how Bath meet any sort of standards at The Rec.

Doncaster have hosted the Premier 15s final recently while Ealing regularly host Women's internationals.
 

Hello Gallagher Premiership,

My name is Sar Acen, and my friends and I are interested in creating a closed shop without looking like baddies? Please let us know the best way to do this. I will invest interest free in your coffee company in return.

 

[Genuine Hibs Fan]

On 27/02/2022 at 11:31, Ginaro said:

Still struggling to get over the fact we didn't score a try here

As others have said there's not even any immediate need to pass there. I bang on about it constantly but our attack has been pretty poor for a while now (4 tries in 3 games so far), we are usually pretty good close to the try line and if we ever get a well executed attacking line out can run a decent sequence but our attack between the 22s is so plodding, largely by choice, that if we make a break or even disorganise the defence we either don't know how to capitalise or panic. Obviously the skill level isn't up to what France's tight 5 can do but modern teams are playing different systems, 1322s etc, that blend forwards and backs a lot better and add more variation to your attacking game. We just seem to hit one out pods, sometimes pulling it back for Russell to either pull off a superb pass or give it to someone getting hit behind the gainline. 

Once again it feels like we have been left behind a bit, the best teams have moved on from what we are trying to do. 

[honestly united]

3 hours ago, Genuine Hibs Fan said:

As others have said there's not even any immediate need to pass there. I bang on about it constantly but our attack has been pretty poor for a while now (4 tries in 3 games so far), we are usually pretty good close to the try line and if we ever get a well executed attacking line out can run a decent sequence but our attack between the 22s is so plodding, largely by choice, that if we make a break or even disorganise the defence we either don't know how to capitalise or panic. Obviously the skill level isn't up to what France's tight 5 can do but modern teams are playing different systems, 1322s etc, that blend forwards and backs a lot better and add more variation to your attacking game. We just seem to hit one out pods, sometimes pulling it back for Russell to either pull off a superb pass or give it to someone getting hit behind the gainline. 

Once again it feels like we have been left behind a bit, the best teams have moved on from what we are trying to do. 

I was looking at some stats that covered the first 3 games, and Duhan and Darcy are both near the top of the charts for defenders beaten and meters made, yet they have hardly been on the end of any good backs moves, they both seem to have created chances out of nothing.

What I haven't seen commented on anywhere about the France game is that Finn appears to have changed tactics after 20 minutes and Im wondering if hes done the same as the England draw. First 20 (and the majority of England and Wales games) the plan seemed to be to aimlessly kick everything and hope for the best, whereas once France had ran back the 2 tries, we kept the ball in hand and had a go which co-incided with some of our best play of the championship. For me there was a definite shift in style and wondered if anyone else was getting vibes of Finn saying F' it to the game plan and doing his own thing?

[Genuine Hibs Fan]

1 hour ago, honestly united said:

I was looking at some stats that covered the first 3 games, and Duhan and Darcy are both near the top of the charts for defenders beaten and meters made, yet they have hardly been on the end of any good backs moves, they both seem to have created chances out of nothing.

What I haven't seen commented on anywhere about the France game is that Finn appears to have changed tactics after 20 minutes and Im wondering if hes done the same as the England draw. First 20 (and the majority of England and Wales games) the plan seemed to be to aimlessly kick everything and hope for the best, whereas once France had ran back the 2 tries, we kept the ball in hand and had a go which co-incided with some of our best play of the championship. For me there was a definite shift in style and wondered if anyone else was getting vibes of Finn saying F' it to the game plan and doing his own thing?

Aye I was going over the stats earlier funnily enough and noticed that too. There is a bit of a tactical element to it, in that contrary to prevailing thinking we have recently sometimes gone wide early to catch out the defence, although tbh I can't be sure we do ATM would need to watch some games back. 

So the backs moves thing is a good point, we now have for the first time in a while excellent strike ball options in VdM, Sione if he plays 12, Bradbury or Fagerson at 8 and despite his size Graham obviously can fit into that category. I think we do pretty well to attack with them off set plays (the build up to the first try Saturday, both tried v England) but our lineout very rarely functions at the moment. One of them making a break/tying in defenders, follow up with some guys who are very handy carrying against less of a brick wall defence (Schoeman, Turner, Watson, Skinner) and you can have a defence scrambling. Few phases and you get a Graham try against Wales or Darges try from the weekend because there's space. 

Our big issue for me is that it breaks down far too quickly if that first attack doesn't come off and I think you're right in that Finn et al are under instructions to kick for territory as soon as it does slow. Problem is the usual pattern is:

Kick to put opposition under pressure.

Opposition kick for touch because they know they can pressure our lineout.

We usually make a hash of the lineout, keeping possession but without momentum/giving away a foul/getting turned over/kicking it back because we don't have ideas.

Repeat.

We just don't have seem to be trained/expected to play with the intricacy that the best teams now do, where pods have almost their own set moves and are composed of forwards and backs, with the FH and maybe FB knitting things together. So when that first phase breaks down our chances of making something of it are slim, and as I mentioned earlier if we do make a break we are nowhere near as clinical as we used to be at converting it into a quick try.

To go back to your point re the wings earlier being largely true - Duhan made two breaks in the first half Saturday. The first was off a missed high ball by Jaminet, the other when it looked like Finn had been caught behind the gainline. 

Edited March 2, 2022 by Genuine Hibs Fan

[honestly united]

17 hours ago, Genuine Hibs Fan said:

Aye I was going over the stats earlier funnily enough and noticed that too. There is a bit of a tactical element to it, in that contrary to prevailing thinking we have recently sometimes gone wide early to catch out the defence, although tbh I can't be sure we do ATM would need to watch some games back. 

So the backs moves thing is a good point, we now have for the first time in a while excellent strike ball options in VdM, Sione if he plays 12, Bradbury or Fagerson at 8 and despite his size Graham obviously can fit into that category. I think we do pretty well to attack with them off set plays (the build up to the first try Saturday, both tried v England) but our lineout very rarely functions at the moment. One of them making a break/tying in defenders, follow up with some guys who are very handy carrying against less of a brick wall defence (Schoeman, Turner, Watson, Skinner) and you can have a defence scrambling. Few phases and you get a Graham try against Wales or Darges try from the weekend because there's space. 

Our big issue for me is that it breaks down far too quickly if that first attack doesn't come off and I think you're right in that Finn et al are under instructions to kick for territory as soon as it does slow. Problem is the usual pattern is:

Kick to put opposition under pressure.

Opposition kick for touch because they know they can pressure our lineout.

We usually make a hash of the lineout, keeping possession but without momentum/giving away a foul/getting turned over/kicking it back because we don't have ideas.

Repeat.

We just don't have seem to be trained/expected to play with the intricacy that the best teams now do, where pods have almost their own set moves and are composed of forwards and backs, with the FH and maybe FB knitting things together. So when that first phase breaks down our chances of making something of it are slim, and as I mentioned earlier if we do make a break we are nowhere near as clinical as we used to be at converting it into a quick try.

To go back to your point re the wings earlier being largely true - Duhan made two breaks in the first half Saturday. The first was off a missed high ball by Jaminet, the other when it looked like Finn had been caught behind the gainline. 

The line out has been an issue for sometime, bascially as all our hookers tend too be converted back row players rather than specialist hookers.

Going back to the SA game in the Autumn, we were a just over a  down early in the 2nd half, with a 5m lineout, score and we are back in the game. We lose the lineout and SA clear out the 22. We then lose the lineout again and SA clear into our half. We again lose the lineout SA attack and we give away a penalty just outside our 22 which SA score to put them 11/12 points in the lead. 3 missed lineouts and it swings from us closing the scores to needing 2 tries and chasing the game in a few minutes. It has been better so far in the 6 Nations, but still no where near good enough. Missing Cummings and Grey obviously hasn't helped either 

[GAD]

The Edinburgh game is pretty entertaining. Connacht are so far offside that it's actually led to a couple of Edinburgh tries as they have completely overshot the line.