Rugby Union

[Jaggy Snake]

[GAD]

20 minutes ago, Jaggy Snake said:

Fucking hell, that's so fucking grim. Wouldn't be surprised if we rolled onto next season with no recognised 10.

[John Lambies Doos]

Gloucester are shite, he could do much better than them

[flyingscot]

Glasgow are regressing badly. SRU will be anxiously watching season ticket renewals now...

[GAD]

9 hours ago, flyingscot said:

Glasgow are regressing badly. SRU will be anxiously watching season ticket renewals now...

To think they are still trying to punt this "warrior nation" bullshit where if you give them £25 now, they might allow you to buy a £30 ticket to a zebre game in the future.

[Mark Connolly]

There’s a rumour going round that Dugan is off to Worcester for big money.

Wonder if Dodson has met his performance bonus targets this year?

[honestly united]

In a way you fee sorry for Wilson as he has not been able to play his 2 big summer signings in Grey and Nakarawa and this season was seen as a bit of a write off before it started, but if there isn't a serious show of intent for next season in the form of a big name (or at least half decent) stand off and full back for starters, and probably a clear out of 15-20 players.

If they act now the majority of the Jauguares squad are looking for a new club as the wages on offer in the SLAR will be tiny in comparison to what Glasgow can offer, and they could be picking the bones of the Chetahs and Kings if there is anything left to pick.

With the SA teams entering next year they need to act soon or risk being pushed back down to being an irrelevance

[Genuine Hibs Fan]

 

On 13/12/2020 at 21:22, John Lambies Doos said:

If you analyse this season, we got a good win against France, but arguably could have lost if not for sending off. We beat a shite Wales team (not in Cardiff) with no crowd in close game. Our two Pro teams are awful and Glasgow, shining becon for years, pumped 42 0.
Appreciate I come across as negative on this thread but I am really struggling to find any positives for the present or future of rugby in our country.

I'm pretty negative about how slowly the national team has progressed given the quality of player we have been working with for a while now, but the bold is looking for problems, not analysing the season. We beat France in a strong performance where they couldn't deal with our physicality and a man was sent off as a result, and any win away in Wales is a good one for Scotland. The caveats are meaningless unless you've literally nicked the win despite a battering, which wasn't the case in either game mentioned. 

Not much argument about the pro teams tbf, the Hastings news is grim for any chance of a Glasgow revitalization. I'd hope that this year is the bottom of a cycle, in the same way other previously excellent teams have had. Doesn't look like it though 

[flyingscot]

3 hours ago, honestly united said:

In a way you fee sorry for Wilson as he has not been able to play his 2 big summer signings in Grey and Nakarawa and this season was seen as a bit of a write off before it started, but if there isn't a serious show of intent for next season in the form of a big name (or at least half decent) stand off and full back for starters, and probably a clear out of 15-20 players.

I do have some sympathy, but the players we have should get better results than Wilson is managing. Covid is a pain and will impact costs going forward which will make things worse. 

There is also zero chance we will get the boy Healy from Munster. The IRFU will see the performance against Quins and make him a huge offer. He's not going to be leaving their system. Glasgow's chance was if, like Hastings, he wasn't starting games for the first team after being in the academy. 

Glasgow are going to really struggle as the kids haven't really been coming into the side and the marquee players are away and no signings to help. I'm not greatly supportive of the 'home player rules' that England and Ireland have but you have to ask if this would help keep stars in Scotland and under SRU control when it seems so many can walk out the door. 

[John Lambies Doos]

Last sentence is bang on. Peter Wright on BBC


You're only talking two or three guys in each team," he added. "If you're ambitious, you want to finish your career as a domestic and European champion.

"The guys with ambition will be looking at their agents and saying: 'Try and get me in that Exeter team or across to France because I want to win a trophy.'

"We've got a group of players but the strength in depth is poor. I think that was proved with Edinburgh on Saturday and Glasgow on Sunday.

"The problem is we think we're going forward, but other teams and nations are going forward quicker."

[honestly united]

1 hour ago, flyingscot said:

I do have some sympathy, but the players we have should get better results than Wilson is managing. Covid is a pain and will impact costs going forward which will make things worse. 

There is also zero chance we will get the boy Healy from Munster. The IRFU will see the performance against Quins and make him a huge offer. He's not going to be leaving their system. Glasgow's chance was if, like Hastings, he wasn't starting games for the first team after being in the academy. 

Glasgow are going to really struggle as the kids haven't really been coming into the side and the marquee players are away and no signings to help. I'm not greatly supportive of the 'home player rules' that England and Ireland have but you have to ask if this would help keep stars in Scotland and under SRU control when it seems so many can walk out the door. 

 the bit in bold, In theory yes, in practice it would make things worse. If Scotland are not able to match the wages in France and England now, when the clubs know they are losing the scottish players for 6N etc, if the SRU came out and said your only getting picked if you stay in Scotland, the wages on offer to a Hogg or Russell would go through the roof as basically instead of missing 12 weeks for internationals your have a player available for every club game in England or France.

Also it would be a complete turn around from the SRU as at the moment they are actively wanting Scottish players playing in Eng & Fra as it takes them off the wage bill that can be used to pay younger players coming through - Hogg wsa reportedly on approx £200k per year at Glasgow, before more than doubling that to £500k at Exeter. SRU couldn't get close to that and Finn is on more in France. Granted some of Dodsons pay could go to funding a team by itself though.

[Detournement]

You can't really blame Hastings for leaving. Zander, Cummings, Huw Jones and Price will join him as soon as possible as well no doubt.

Glasgow really need another group of the level of Russell, Hogg, the Grays, Peter Horne, Ali Price, Dunbar, Seymour, Wilson and Bennett to emerge from the academy but that looks like being a one off. They are all 1989-94 birthdays. The 95-2000 crop haven't had the same impact yet and don't look like they can take up the slack.

[afca32]

5 hours ago, Detournement said:

You can't really blame Hastings for leaving. Zander, Cummings, Huw Jones and Price will join him as soon as possible as well no doubt.

Glasgow really need another group of the level of Russell, Hogg, the Grays, Peter Horne, Ali Price, Dunbar, Seymour, Wilson and Bennett to emerge from the academy but that looks like being a one off. They are all 1989-94 birthdays. The 95-2000 crop haven't had the same impact yet and don't look like they can take up the slack.

The 95-2000 group of players have performed considerably better at u20 level than anything that came before them. Glasgow got a bit lucky that almost all the best talent coming through prior to that ended up with them, whereas more recently guys like Ritchie and Bradbury ended up at Edinburgh after growing up in Glasgow's catchment.

18 months ago the future looked pretty bright for Glasgow, they had just made the final with a pretty young team while playing some outrageous rugby. Since then not much has gone right though. Very few youngsters have been given a shot, I think largely as most games since the start of last season have looked close to a must win, making it less appealing to try out youngsters. McLean, Ross Thompson, Ollie Smith, Henderson and Sykes haven't played a game despite clearly being talented, resulting in the latter two leaving. McDowall, Davidson, Nairn, Matt Smith and Thornton were all underplayed last year and even Tom Gordon took ages to be trusted despite always performing really well when he did play. Smith always showed a lot of promise but was strangely frozen out and has since retired and now Bruce Flockhart, who has also looked very good in his limited outings, has taken a break from rugby leaving an ageing back row.

When most of the players you list broke through there was no expectation on Glasgow, the 2010/11 season they finished 11th of 12 and while still considered a rubbish season it wasn't the utter disaster it would be now. The difference between now and then is that the likes of Dunbar, Harley, Hogg, Horne, Fusaro, Wilson, Seymour and Bennett were all given time to adjust to pro rugby and they built their success off the back of that. I'd be quite happy for Glasgow to almost write off the next 18 months and play younger guys more often, there is plenty of talent there. So many fans though have only known success and I'm not sure how they'd deal with it.

Overall I think there's been some bad luck in there but it's more down to bad planning.

Edited December 15, 2020 by afca32

[John Lambies Doos]

The 95-2000 group of players have performed considerably better at u20 level than anything that came before them. Glasgow got a bit lucky that almost all the best talent coming through prior to that ended up with them, whereas more recently guys like Ritchie and Bradbury ended up at Edinburgh after growing up in Glasgow's catchment.
18 months ago the future looked pretty bright for Glasgow, they had just made the final with a pretty young team while playing some outrageous rugby. Since then not much has gone right though. Very few youngsters have been given a shot, I think largely as most games since the start of last season have looked close to a must win, making it less appealing to try out youngsters. McLean, Ross Thompson, Ollie Smith, Henderson and Sykes haven't played a game despite clearly being talented, resulting in the latter two leaving. McDowall, Davidson, Nairn, Matt Smith and Thornton were all underplayed last year and even Tom Gordon took ages to be trusted despite always performing really well when he did play. Smith always showed a lot of promise but was strangely frozen out and has since retired and now Bruce Flockhart, who has also looked very good in his limited outings, has taken a break from rugby leaving an ageing back row.
When most of the players you list broke through there was no expectation on Glasgow, the 2010/11 season they finished 11th of 12 and while still considered a rubbish season it wasn't the utter disaster it would be now. The difference between now and then is that the likes of Dunbar, Harley, Hogg, Horne, Fusaro, Wilson, Seymour and Bennett were all given time to adjust to pro rugby and they built their success off the back of that. I'd be quite happy for Glasgow to almost write off the next 18 months and play younger guys more often, there is plenty of talent there. So many fans though have only known success and I'm not sure how they'd deal with it.
Overall I think there's been some bad luck in there but it's more down to bad planning.

And who is responsible for bad planning?

[afca32]

49 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said:

11 hours ago, afca32 said:

The 95-2000 group of players have performed considerably better at u20 level than anything that came before them. Glasgow got a bit lucky that almost all the best talent coming through prior to that ended up with them, whereas more recently guys like Ritchie and Bradbury ended up at Edinburgh after growing up in Glasgow's catchment.
18 months ago the future looked pretty bright for Glasgow, they had just made the final with a pretty young team while playing some outrageous rugby. Since then not much has gone right though. Very few youngsters have been given a shot, I think largely as most games since the start of last season have looked close to a must win, making it less appealing to try out youngsters. McLean, Ross Thompson, Ollie Smith, Henderson and Sykes haven't played a game despite clearly being talented, resulting in the latter two leaving. McDowall, Davidson, Nairn, Matt Smith and Thornton were all underplayed last year and even Tom Gordon took ages to be trusted despite always performing really well when he did play. Smith always showed a lot of promise but was strangely frozen out and has since retired and now Bruce Flockhart, who has also looked very good in his limited outings, has taken a break from rugby leaving an ageing back row.
When most of the players you list broke through there was no expectation on Glasgow, the 2010/11 season they finished 11th of 12 and while still considered a rubbish season it wasn't the utter disaster it would be now. The difference between now and then is that the likes of Dunbar, Harley, Hogg, Horne, Fusaro, Wilson, Seymour and Bennett were all given time to adjust to pro rugby and they built their success off the back of that. I'd be quite happy for Glasgow to almost write off the next 18 months and play younger guys more often, there is plenty of talent there. So many fans though have only known success and I'm not sure how they'd deal with it.
Overall I think there's been some bad luck in there but it's more down to bad planning.

And who is responsible for bad planning?

Rennie, Wilson and those higher up both at the SRU and at Glasgow I'd expect.

[John Lambies Doos]

Rennie, Wilson and those higher up both at the SRU and at Glasgow I'd expect.

Was a tad rhetorical, but buck stops with Champagne millionaire Dobson. Will he be held accountable, I doubt it.

[honestly united]

If you look at England, Ireland, and Wales all the development is done by the clubs in essence - Welsh and Irish pro clubs cover everything and in England the Premiership clubs (14 teams as includes stakeholder clubs) each have an academy so they cover the whole country and this has replaced the county under age teams as the pinnancle of the youth set ups. Kids still play for their local clubs but being selected for an academy from a premiership side or a province / region still means something. In England for example the academies play meaningful games with league tables etc. Although the aim is to develop players, it is also developing a winning mentallity which is something lacking from most Scotish players.

If Scotland  actually had some foresight they could have used the same model when setting up the Super 6 - have a Super 6 club in each area that acted as a development hub for age grade also (ie Aberdeen, Stirling, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Ayr and Melrose would have captured the entire country more or less - 95% of people should be within an hour of a club) then there would have been a clear development pathway from youth to semi-pro to Pro club. Instead we are still doing the 4 regions which doesnt tie into anything within the pro game and still feels like the amateur days.

The Super 6 should help to develop players giving them much needed competitve game time, as that is lacking at the moment as with only 2 pro teams you only have space for 3 or 4 players per club to come through each year, yet we should have (in theory) 10-15 players graduating from the Scotland u-20's each year

[flyingscot]

The Super 6 wasn't done right- it needed to be better related to the Academies and less towards existing clubs in my eyes. Wasn't Keith Russell binned over it, which he won unfair dismissal?

I know a lot of people are critical of Rennie for lack of forward planning, I think this is slightly harsh. Rennie clearly focused on keeping Glasgow competitive and indeed the results, title aside, were as good as Townsend managed. I also believe Rennie would have won more games than we have at present. Perhaps the need for competitiveness meant we never had a season of trying out the youths. 

[ajwffc]

Glasgow's game on Sunday v Toulouse is off as Exeter have had a Covid outbreak. Game will probably not be rearranged and tournament organisers will decide what happens next.

 

[flyingscot]

45 minutes ago, ajwffc said:

Glasgow's game on Sunday v Toulouse is off as Exeter have had a Covid outbreak. Game will probably not be rearranged and tournament organisers will decide what happens next.

That's a headache for EPRC. Exeter is easy to deal with, they got covid positive test, they can forfeit, which despite much unfairness is simple.

Glasgow is far harder- punishing a side simply due to scheduling because they played a side who got covid and have now been advised to isolate by public health is more challenging. I suspect Lyon get the win, but that seems very unfair, even if 28-0 is probably a better result than Glasgow would achieve right now!