Livingston - all the threads merged

[Roger the cabin boy]

10 hours ago, Troy.1995 said:

Roger the Dodger more like.Speculative pish from a failed attention seeker.Trash talk,best ignored..

 

12 hours ago, DavideFernandezLoveChild said:

Something appearing to happen is neither official or fact, Mr all-seeing-all-knowing-livi-c-suite-overlord. 

Post some credible sources or stfu. We want to chat about wildly speculative summer transfers and not what you've heard from your non-existent sources.  

 

 

11 hours ago, LiviLion said:

You're the only person saying this. Do you have any sources this time or just another "probably"?

Since we desperately need official statements for verification... Why not an official statement on the 800 thousand pounds in financial losses filed by the club? Where is the official statement on that and why haven't people been crying out for one? Everyone here with heads in the sand too afraid to ask any questions. From people here and on facebook It has been nothing but 'probably' COVID, 'probably' VAR, 'probably' we should be grateful for being in the league at all!.... 'Probably' time to ask how on earth all that money was spent!

So yes, wildly speculate all you want on players we can't afford (and moan about this too) while the club pisses away money, and on god knows what because they'll never give you an "official" honest answer. Let's just wait, not ask questions, and run to the defence of those responsible for allowing the club to get into severe financial difficulty.

[DavideFernandezLoveChild]

You’ve legitimate concerns about finances and running of the club, fine. But the way to engage fans in those conversations isnae ‘Rumour mill around Berwick is such-an-such’. Or I’ve heard fae my uncles, neighbour’s cousin that John Ward is considering leaving, is it? 
 

But let’s actually look at some of your concerns. The club have been making a loss for many years. Martindale has come out and explained that VAR took a big dent out of the budget. We’ve set up a youth academy, a women’s team, done substantial work on the stadium all the while bringing in a higher quality of player in the past 5 years. Our four main revenue streams are fans (increased YoY attendance figures and increase ST holders). Prize money (disappointing this year with 8th all things considered and potential for a Hampden cup appearance squandered). Player sales (Dykes and not much else - but realistically only a handful of clubs get players sales). Commercial deals (TV revenue has increased although still disappointing and can’t speak much on commercial deals but we seem to have a lot more partners that 5 years ago)
 

The area they can have more control over, the fans has seen far more engagement in the community, free tickets, greater social media presence all of which will pay off in the long run as long as we maintain top flight football. This can be seen in the ST sales from last year and increased attendances. It won’t change overnight. 
 

Can I ask where you think the club are pissing away money and what you think they should do differently?  

Edited June 1 by DavideFernandezLoveChild

[Guest]

14 hours ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

A sobering assessment of where we currently stand for next season by Callum Carson. Late collapse leaves Livingston heading for more challenging rebuild than should have been needed - Daily Record

He's played the game there of sticking a pin in the calendar at random dates. If we do that then, yes, we can say the team was 4th at one point. However, Aberdeen and Hibs were two of the sides behind us. Finishing above either of them or Hearts is always unlikely for the "town teams". Also on our tails were St Mirren, who had beaten Celtic and were reminding me of us in the Lyndon Dykes 19/20 season. It felt like it was "their year".

Progress in cup competitions isn't a good gauge for a team's level because all it takes is one shite performance and you're out. As with us against ICT this season. So cup progress should only ever be viewed as a bonus. The league is the bread and butter.

I disagree with his assessment of Anderson. Fewer goals scored, which was maybe all Carson meant, but Anderson has been a consistent bright spot. His dribbling has improved, allowing him to now create goals for himself out of nothing - see his second away to County in January. His passing in build up play is also getting better all the time, see his assist for Nouble's first against St Johnstone in April. Anderson went off form only really in May, I'd argue, a time when the whole team was dysfunctioning.

Pittman didn't score this season, sure, but he was mostly used as a high pressing ball winner. Not a role conducive to goal scoring or general creative play.

Edited June 1 by FreedomFarter

[Cptn Hooch]

9 hours ago, DavideFernandezLoveChild said:

You’ve legitimate concerns about finances and running of the club, fine. But the way to engage fans in those conversations isnae ‘Rumour mill around Berwick is such-an-such’. Or I’ve heard fae my uncles, neighbour’s cousin that John Ward is considering leaving, is it? 
 

But let’s actually look at some of your concerns. The club have been making a loss for many years. Martindale has come out and explained that VAR took a big dent out of the budget. We’ve set up a youth academy, a women’s team, done substantial work on the stadium all the while bringing in a higher quality of player in the past 5 years. Our four main revenue streams are fans (increased YoY attendance figures and increase ST holders). Prize money (disappointing this year with 8th all things considered and potential for a Hampden cup appearance squandered). Player sales (Dykes and not much else - but realistically only a handful of clubs get players sales). Commercial deals (TV revenue has increased although still disappointing and can’t speak much on commercial deals but we seem to have a lot more partners that 5 years ago)
 

The area they can have more control over, the fans has seen far more engagement in the community, free tickets, greater social media presence all of which will pay off in the long run as long as we maintain top flight football. It won’t change overnight. 
 

Can I ask where you think the club are pissing away money and what you think they should do differently?  

That nail you've hit on the head will likely never be hit as flush again. I think there's been an element of Martindale pushing the boat out this season in terms of budget in the fight for top 6/europe. Maybe a bit naïve and we're paying for it this season but I have faith that he'll rein it in and have us back on track. Covid and VAR have certainly hit us as we were on the verge of being debt free back in 2019. In that time we've missed out on the financial gain of consecutive top 6 finishes, a national cup final and the Dykes money which has been wiped out. The creation of the women's team and academy will have had further impact but will benefit the club over time.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Cptn Hooch said:

That nail you've hit on the head will likely never be hit as flush again. I think there's been an element of Martindale pushing the boat out this season in terms of budget in the fight for top 6/europe. Maybe a bit naïve and we're paying for it this season but I have faith that he'll rein it in and have us back on track. Covid and VAR have certainly hit us as we were on the verge of being debt free back in 2019. In that time we've missed out on the financial gain of consecutive top 6 finishes, a national cup final and the Dykes money which has been wiped out. The creation of the women's team and academy will have had further impact but will benefit the club over time.

I'm guessing the women's team barely makes a dent, if any. There's likely SFA funds given to clubs that cover costs. Again, complete guess, though.

[LIVIFOREVER]

2 hours ago, FreedomFarter said:

He's played the game there of sticking a pin in the calendar at random dates. If we do that then, yes, we can say the team was 4th at one point. However, Aberdeen and Hibs were two of the sides behind us. Finishing above either of them or Hearts is always unlikely for the "town teams". Also on our tails were St Mirren, who had beaten Celtic and were reminding me of us in the Lyndon Dykes 19/20 season. It felt like it was "their year".

Progress in cup competitions isn't a good gauge for a team's level because all it takes is one shite performance and you're out. As with us against ICT this season. So cup progress should only ever be viewed as a bonus. The league is the bread and butter.

I disagree with his assessment of Anderson. Fewer goals scored, which was maybe all Carson meant, but Anderson has been a consistent bright spot. His dribbling has improved, allowing him to now create goals for himself out of nothing - see his second away to County in January. His passing in build up play is also getting better all the time, see his assist for Nouble's first against St Johnstone in April. Anderson went off form only really in May, I'd argue, a time when the whole team was dysfunctioning.

Pittman didn't score this season, sure, but he was mostly used as a high pressing ball winner. Not a role conducive to goal scoring or general creative play.

I think it's a pretty fair assessment of our season, and the player by player evaluations. We were sitting pretty in 4th late on in the season, and with 9 games to go to the split it looked harder not to get into the top 6, and as bad a run as we had away from home, we still failed by not winning against the bottom team in the league (who has now been relegated).

Aberdeen's turnaround couldn't have been seen, think they took 21pts from those 7 pre split games that started from beating us 1-0 when they were sitting 7th., compared to us only managing 7pts from 8 games, that was some turnaround.

Hibs results weren't any better than ours in their final 7 pre split games, 7pts, but crucially they gubbed us at the TMA though.

Same with St Mirren, managing 8pts from their final 7 pre split games, again crucially gubbing us, it was purely down to our own results falling off the proverbial cliff we failed to get top 6.

I  agree with him saying Martindale has been over critical of Anderson, and your points highlight most of the reasons why, but i would add, a big part of why he wasn't scoring was down to how he was being played, and expected to do a Lyndon Dykes type role taking long balls with his back to big CB's, that just isn't his game, and if he's being played like that you wont get goals from him. However it really does look like Martindale has a problem with Anderson, and doesn't look good for him next season, rather than trying to get the best out of him, we'll continue to play a style that doesn't suit him, and prob bring in another striker who is more suited to that style. Seeing Anderson continue to be played less as our main starting striker.

 

[Cptn Hooch]

12 minutes ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

I think it's a pretty fair assessment of our season, and the player by player evaluations. We were sitting pretty in 4th late on in the season, and with 9 games to go to the split it looked harder not to get into the top 6, and as bad a run as we had away from home, we still failed by not winning against the bottom team in the league (who has now been relegated).

Aberdeen's turnaround couldn't have been seen, think they took 21pts from those 7 pre split games that started from beating us 1-0 when they were sitting 7th., compared to us only managing 7pts from 8 games, that was some turnaround.

Hibs results weren't any better than ours in their final 7 pre split games, 7pts, but crucially they gubbed us at the TMA though.

Same with St Mirren, managing 8pts from their final 7 pre split games, again crucially gubbing us, it was purely down to our own results falling off the proverbial cliff we failed to get top 6.

I  agree with him saying Martindale has been over critical of Anderson, and your points highlight most of the reasons why, but i would add, a big part of why he wasn't scoring was down to how he was being played, and expected to do a Lyndon Dykes type role taking long balls with his back to big CB's, that just isn't his game, and if he's being played like that you wont get goals from him. However it really does look like Martindale has a problem with Anderson, and doesn't look good for him next season, rather than trying to get the best out of him, we'll continue to play a style that doesn't suit him, and prob bring in another striker who is more suited to that style. Seeing Anderson continue to be played less as our main starting striker.

 

I believe the stats posted by Anderson's gps vest have been below expectation at times through the season. That will be where Martindale is being critical. He's aware he's a good player but can be better

[LIVIFOREVER]

18 minutes ago, Cptn Hooch said:

I believe the stats posted by Anderson's gps vest have been below expectation at times through the season. That will be where Martindale is being critical. He's aware he's a good player but can be better

Again though, i'd say Martindale isn't playing him in a way he'll score goals and get the best out of him. He gets pushed out of the way or climbed over by big CB's, as we continually hit long balls directly up to him. If we are hitting long balls, we should be playing into space behind him, giving him a chance to beat the CB.

That's the same with how we've been so poor away from home in general though, not just how Anderson was on a hiding to nothing with his supply. Our wingers/WB's weren't getting balls played ahead of them, it kept being played to them, or behind them, and everything slowed down, with the ball then hit back again. No movement, ponderous build up play, then launching a long ball straight towards Anderson, we rarely just ran at opposition players, Montano and Devlin occasionally did, and it opened everything up and created space for our attacking players.

Getting back to my point on Anderson's lack of goals, we need to be playing in up the flanks and in behind them to get Anderson with his face to goal running at the opposition, and getting into the box, where he's far more likely to score. He's a good finisher if he gets supplied with decent balls.

[LIVIFOREVER]

1 hour ago, FreedomFarter said:

I'm guessing the women's team barely makes a dent, if any. There's likely SFA funds given to clubs that cover costs. Again, complete guess, though.

The Youth academy will have though, we originally scrapped it because it became too costly to run, but in the top flight it is one of the reasons we wouldn't be allowed to play in Europe, and when we finished 5th and 6th it made sense to start it up again. We've since narrowly missed top 6 on the final split game too, and would have been gutting making it, then going on to get a 5th place Euro spot (with one of the erse cheeks winning the cup) and not having the criteria to play in it.

It'll take a couple of good seasons recovering from the Covid hit too, unfortunately for us we had our best 2 seasons during lock down restrictions, and lost out in a lot of money. Plus a full season with no gate money, think only Celtic didn't take the Govt loan, might be whataboutery saying we're not the only club in debt due to the Covid restriction seasons, but it took its toll on all the clubs, and at the time it was all about just trying to survive without gate money coming in.

Edited June 1 by LIVIFOREVER

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

The Youth academy will have though, we originally scrapped it because it became to costly to run, but in the top flight it is one of the reasons we wouldn't be allowed to play in Europe, and when we finished 5th and 6th it made sense to start it up again. We've since narrowly missed top 6 on the final split game too, and would have been gutting making it, then going on to get a 5th place Euro spot (with one of the erse cheeks winning the cup) and not having the criteria to play in it.

It'll take a couple of good seasons recovering from the Covid hit too, unfortunately for us we had our best 2 seasons during lock down restrictions, and lost out in a lot of money. Plus a full season with no gate money, think only Celtic didn't take the Govt loan, might be whataboutery saying we're not the only club in debt due to the Covid restriction seasons, but it took its toll on all the clubs, and at the time it was all about just trying to survive without gate money coming in.

Sure, youth teams are a definite expenditure.

Covid was a bigger b*****d for clubs in a growth period, that's us, as it prevented that growth from happening. Very annoying but can't change what happens. We are where we are and that's still a good position.

Back to team issues, Carson is right about the need for a quality alternative or back up to Anderson. Zero league goals between Guthrie and Gonçalves speaks for itself. Otherwise, though, I'm fairly relaxed about the attack. Stephen Kelly, Shinnie, Pittman, Bahamboula, Bradley and Penrice are a good set of options for attacking midfield. If a quality attacking addition can be made then great but I think the problem has overwhelmingly been our defensive weakness. So I'm most concerned about the right defenders and centre mids being signed. Devlin is an encouraging first step. I know of his injury record but it's common in football for a player to finally move past such problems. Hopefully that happens now for him.

[Troy.1995]

Think it should be remembered that,right or wrong,criticism of Anderson should be tempered at times.Its common knowledge he has health issues etc.But still he continues to put in a helluva shift even if its only generally for 2 thirds of a game.Would agree though the tactic of hoofing balls to him is just a waste of time,and surely even Martindale must recognise this.

[LIVIFOREVER]

6 minutes ago, Troy.1995 said:

Think it should be remembered that,right or wrong,criticism of Anderson should be tempered at times.Its common knowledge he has health issues etc.But still he continues to put in a helluva shift even if its only generally for 2 thirds of a game.Would agree though the tactic of hoofing balls to him is just a waste of time,and surely even Martindale must recognise this.

Read on the FB page (yeah i know, i don't venture onto it that often) Callum Carson saying it isn't Davie's game plan to hoof long balls at Anderson, it just seems to descend into that pattern of play. Maybe needs to look at why that is then, because it seems to me we're playing so slowly in our build up, bringing it out from the back, and are being so easily marked out of having a player to pass to, then pressed, we end up just hoofing it in hope.

[DavideFernandezLoveChild]

It is bizarre that it descends into that. I watched the games we played during the winter break online and we played some really brilliant stuff. All on the ground and rarely in the air. I thought, if this is how we are going to play the second half of the season we will be in Europe easily. But it didn't materialise once the 2nd half started.

[RandomGuy.]

Its probably the same issue half the league has, in that you need a CM brave enough to take the ball deep and beat men with it, IMO.

Its hard to pass your way through sides unless you have exceptional players, and if you dont have someone who can run with the ball through the middle, then you find teams are comfortable going 1v1 in there and you have folk with the ball seeing no option other than a hoof due to a lack of patience.

[LIVIFOREVER]

37 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Its probably the same issue half the league has, in that you need a CM brave enough to take the ball deep and beat men with it, IMO.

Its hard to pass your way through sides unless you have exceptional players, and if you dont have someone who can run with the ball through the middle, then you find teams are comfortable going 1v1 in there and you have folk with the ball seeing no option other than a hoof due to a lack of patience.

That was exactly what happened to us in these final section of games, yep. Although if you immediately turn and pass you can still move the ball quickly up the pitch to the likes of Nouble who can run with the ball taking on players, and getting past them. Devlin & Montano can do it too. However we seemed to freeze and immediately turn back playing it safe, as if we were frightened we'd lose the ball, Holt, Shinnie, even saw Omeonga doing it, and he's excellent at setting up attacks, winning the ball in midfield and playing it forward.

It's as if we got ourselves into an almost unassailable position for top 6, then absolutely shat it, playing so safely we stopped winning games. Even stopped scoring goals in away games, we played so slow and cautiously.

[Menga Bus]

Could anyone actually say what our genuine play style and game plan is? After a full season I couldn’t tell you, which is absolutely mental.

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Menga Bus said:

Could anyone actually say what our genuine play style and game plan is? After a full season I couldn’t tell you, which is absolutely mental.

Depends on formation but in the 4-2-3-1 the idea was that the wide attacking mids would come infield quite narrow, back to goal, during build up. They'd be the main targets for our centre backs to fire passes into. The full backs overlapped them wide. This worked at times especially with Nouble and Montano linking down the left in quite a few home games. Boyes was good at knocking passes into Nouble. Bradley and Devlin linked well this way down the right in some matches, St Johnstone away back in January, most memorably. The centre mids were to back up those wide attacking mids, give them an option to lay the ball back to and create a triangle with them and the full back on each side. The central attacking mid normally stayed quite high at that stage in the build up and didn't get involved until the ball had been worked into the final third, often moving into the space vacated by Anderson who would peel off from his central starting position and make a run in the channel on the side we were building down. 

[ATLIS]

Robert Wilson retires, hardly seems like the doom and gloom 'stepping away' that was talked about previously. I remember having a good chat with him at the PotY award in the season we went up and seemed like a guy with Livi's best interests at heart. Always a total gentleman and willing to have a chat with anyone that came up to him

[Roger the cabin boy]

On 30/05/2023 at 18:05, ATLIS said:

 

As of yet, you're talking nonsense again. Nothing official, I'll wait until it's confirmed via official channels. 

One down, one more to go! Oh, err, and Gary Brown too... big shoes to fill from this guy I'm sure

[JD and associates]

Guys, you know who you are, do the decent thing and apologise to Roger. Turns out this fella knows what he’s on about. You’re all quick to slag off the Facebook group but a few of you on here ought to wind your neck in a little and show some respect to other users of the forum. 
 

Charlton Athletic apparently interested in Nouble. £500-£700k a likely base figure.