Au Revoir Arsene?

[The Troll]

He's been there since 1996, so you are trying to use the fact that he has achieved what he has by having a net transfer spend of circa £1.3 million a season as a bad thing ?? That's ridiculously good.

Did I say it was a bad thing?

[The Troll]

You have to put it in context though. How much have Chelsea, Man U, Man City, Liverpool etc spent in that same time? How much have they got for being in the Champion's League all those seasons under him?

I'm on my iPod but will check the other sides. I made a thread about it earlier in the year with all the figures anyway. And he makes huge non-transfer profits without doubt

[The Troll]

Can I just add that (from memory) Arsenal were in a huge loss from transfers until they moved stadium. Since they moved stadium they've started making money from transfers but I can't remember how much

[dane-don]

He's been there since 1996, so you are trying to use the fact that he has achieved what he has by having a net transfer spend of circa £1.3 million a season as a bad thing ?? That's ridiculously good.

It's worth remembering that it's The Troll you're replying to here.

[The Troll]

It's worth remembering that it's The Troll you're replying to here.

it's worth noting I never gave an opinion on the figures

[TheLip69]

To be honest, I think he's outstayed his welcome by about four years. The team has stagnated under his leadership. There's no neart, no guts, in this team. It has been that way for a while, Van Persies goals helped them out of a few scrapes last season and none of their signings has adequately filled that gap. Wenger's been trading on his reputation for far too long, 8 years without a trophy is, for a club like Arsenal, not acceptable. I dont think Arseanl should sack him, I think if the man has any honour at all he should walk.

[xbl]

Would any other manager have done better than Wenger with the resources at his disposal? Would any other manager have magically kept hold of all those players? Somehow, I have my doubts.

Yes, things aren't perfect, but I think he has them at or even slightly above their level. Pretty much every season for the last decade, Arsenal have been described as the team most likely to drop out of the top four because their team isn't good enough, and yet, they always seem to manage to get into the Champions league somehow...

[vikingTON]

Pretty much every season for the last decade, Arsenal have been described as the team most likely to drop out of the top four because their team isn't good enough, and yet, they always seem to manage to get into the Champions league somehow...

Somehow? They have one of the largest wage budgets in the division: if he was in charge of Stoke, this might have been cause for amazement.

The idea that Arsenal are some thrifty minnows battling against the odds is ridiculous: their wage bill is huge. Meanwhile, when it comes to the crunch-time of winning trophies, they've achieved even less than notable car-crashes such as Liverpool in the same period.

[xbl]

Somehow? They have one of the largest wage budgets in the division: if he was in charge of Stoke, this might have been cause for amazement.

The idea that Arsenal are some thrifty minnows battling against the odds is ridiculous: their wage bill is huge. Meanwhile, when it comes to the crunch-time of winning trophies, they've achieved even less than notable car-crashes such as Liverpool in the same period.

So why were they consistently predicted to be the team to drop out of the "big four"? I'm not trying to say that they are plucky minnows though, I'm simply asking who people think could have delivered the same results within the constraints (yes, relative to Chelsea, Man City, they are constraints). Who do you think would have done a better job these last few years?

[vikingTON]

So why were they consistently predicted to be the team to drop out of the "big four"?

Predicted by who? Even so, that pundits or others tipped Arsenal to underachieve (which means of course, finishing 5th or at worse 6th: they're not talking about them entering a relegation dogfight) is hardly outrageous. That doesn't make finishing fourth, again, worthy of a ticker-tape parade though.

For Arsenal fans, looking up what that is in a dictionary might be helpful right now.

I'm not trying to say that they are plucky minnows though, I'm simply asking who people think could have delivered the same results within the constraints (yes, relative to Chelsea, Man City, they are constraints). Who do you think would have done a better job these last few years?

Most bog-standard managers should be able to deliver regular Champions League football and absolutely nothing else with the budget at Wenger's disposal. In terms of league performance he is doing about as much as expected - until the terrible season so far - while in terms of squad depth the side is much weaker, not stronger than it has been after almost every window in the past 3 years, and the trophy drought is becoming a running joke.

That Arsenal are doing so poorly in what is hardly a stellar standard of league, compared to what has gone before, is telling. Manchester United, a team who can't defend to save themselves, are already 15 points clear after the same amount of games. That is a clear failure.

[xbl]

Predicted by who? Even so, that pundits or others tipped Arsenal to underachieve (which means of course, finishing 5th or at worse 6th: they're not talking about them entering a relegation dogfight) is hardly outrageous. That doesn't make finishing fourth, again, worthy of a ticker-tape parade though.

For Arsenal fans, looking up what that is in a dictionary might be helpful right now.

Most bog-standard managers should be able to deliver regular Champions League football and absolutely nothing else with the budget at Wenger's disposal. In terms of league performance he is doing about as much as expected - until the terrible season so far - while in terms of squad depth the side is much weaker, not stronger than it has been after almost every window in the past 3 years, and the trophy drought is becoming a running joke.

That Arsenal are doing so poorly in what is hardly a stellar standard of league, compared to what has gone before, is telling. Manchester United, a team who can't defend to save themselves, are already 15 points clear after the same amount of games. That is a clear failure.

Predicted by who? Don't start with the revisionism. A look at what any pundits have said, and probably a scan through the history of this forum will answer that issue.

Furthermore,this "terrible" season so far? I think you might want a look at that dictionary yourself.

As for "most bog standard" managers, are you sure? Because it seems to me that you are claiming the squad is much weaker after every window for the last three years, yet continuing to deliver consistent results. This is hardly a poor job he is doing. Nobody is saying he should be feted at the messiah for you know, 15 years of consecutive champions league qualification, but at the same time, its hardly the case that he is having a 'mare. Are you also saying that somehow, a different manager would have magically stopped Fabregas wanting to go back to Barca, and kept Nasri, Clichy, Adebayor, Toure, and van Persie away from the lucrative money the Manchester clubs offered? How would this mythical manager have achieved this?

My argument is that he is going through a bit of a rough patch in terms of results, but its hardly a sign of the failure you seem to be painting it as. Get some perspective boy.

[xbl]

I actually just had to double check the EPL table, just to check how bad this total failure was. They're 6 points off third place. Gasp.

[vikingTON]

Predicted by who? Don't start with the revisionism. A look at what any pundits have said, and probably a scan through the history of this forum will answer that issue.

Do you have any evidence of these pundits? Quite honestly, I don't recall anything of note. Meanwhile, the idea that the likes of Supras set the benchmark for managerial success in the Premiership is clutching at straws, quite frankly.

Furthermore,this "terrible" season so far? I think you might want a look at that dictionary yourself.

10th in the Premiership with comfortably a top 5 budget: below a recently promoted West Ham side, with absolutely no chance of challenging for top domestic honours come the end of the season. Their season is a write-off in December bar an extremely unlikely shot at the CL.

That is absolutely dreadful for a club with Arsenal's budget, not to mention the continuity in management. At least for Liverpool it's a case of rebuilding after multiple car-crashes (and quite possibly another in the offing). Apart from that, no side is in a worse predicament given their resources than Arsenal.

Are you also saying that somehow, a different manager would have magically stopped Fabregas wanting to go back to Barca, and kept Nasri, Clichy, Adebayor, Toure, and van Persie away from the lucrative money the Manchester clubs offered? How would this mythical manager have achieved this?

Other managers would have replaced said players with better options than Per Mertesacker, Chamakh, and all the other dross Wenger has been assembling. It was evident to everyone last season that they were massively reliant on RvP for goals, and unsurprisingly they've absolutely flopped once he moved on. It hardly took Nostradamus to predict either his departure or the outcome. Wenger has failed to rebuild.

My argument is that he is going through a bit of a rough patch in terms of results, but its hardly a sign of the failure you seem to be painting it as. Get some perspective boy.

Some rough patch, to have gone eight full seasons without a single trophy to show for it.

[vikingTON]

I actually just had to double check the EPL table, just to check how bad this total failure was. They're 6 points off third place. Gasp.

They're also five points behind big-hitters West Brom, and much closer to the relegation spots than the top of the table.

[xbl]

Do you have any evidence of these pundits? Quite honestly, I don't recall anything of note. Meanwhile, the idea that the likes of Supras set the benchmark for managerial success in the Premiership is clutching at straws, quite frankly.

10th in the Premiership with comfortably a top 5 budget: below a recently promoted West Ham side, with absolutely no chance of challenging for top domestic honours come the end of the season. Their season is a write-off in December bar an extremely unlikely shot at the CL.

That is absolutely dreadful for a club with Arsenal's budget, not to mention the continuity in management. At least for Liverpool it's a case of rebuilding after multiple car-crashes (and quite possibly another in the offing). Apart from that, no side is in a worse predicament given their resources than Arsenal.

Other managers would have replaced said players with better options than Per Mertesacker, Chamakh, and all the other dross Wenger has been assembling. It was evident to everyone last season that they were massively reliant on RvP for goals, and unsurprisingly they've absolutely flopped once he moved on. It hardly took Nostradamus to predict either his departure or the outcome. Wenger has failed to rebuild.

Some rough patch, to have gone eight full seasons without a single trophy to show for it.

Seriously? Seriously? You know what, just do a google for arsenal drop out of top four. This is revisionism at its most embarrassing. The 10th in the premiership stuff is just as bad too. SIX points off third. Thats two wins. This is hysteria at its most embarrassing. As far as I can see, they're still in the FA Cup, still in the League Cup, still in the Champions League, and this is a write off? Do you think they won't qualify for the Champions League next season with Wenger in charge? Because if they do, then they've done what is expected of them, given their budget.

I'm not trying to say this has been a good season so far, by Arsenal's standards, I'd say it wasn't great at all, but the above is the sort of ridiculous hysterical drivel I'd expect from Dubs and Supras.

Just thought I'd look up some stats btw. After 15 games this season, Arsenal have won 5, drawn 6, and lost 4. After 15 games last season, Arsenal had won 9, drawn 2, and lost 4. So they have lost the same number of games, but have drawn more. Its not great, but it hardly merits the hysteria you seem to have come out with. Lets keep this sensible eh?

[xbl]

They're also five points behind big-hitters West Brom, and much closer to the relegation spots than the top of the table.

Simple question. Do you think they will finish outside the top 4?

[The Troll]

I actually just had to double check the EPL table, just to check how bad this total failure was. They're 6 points off third place. Gasp.

They earn points but the clubs clearly standing still. Every other EPL club seem to making progress and trying to improve and become better than what they are, some are spending cash willy nilly while others are being more measured but Arsenal seem to stand completely still. They still go on about the youngsters but Manchester United actually have a lower average age and the squad has amassed 1672 EPL matches combined. It's frightening to think Abou Diaby is 26 now and yet still gets kept for his potential

[vikingTON]

Seriously? Seriously? You know what, just do a google for arsenal drop out of top four. This is revisionism at its most embarrassing.

The onus is on yourself (the accuser) to provide evidence. I genuinely can't be arsed sifting through TalkSport etc to see what the clowns have said over the past few years.

The 10th in the premiership stuff is just as bad too. SIX points off third. Thats two wins. This is hysteria at its most embarrassing.

By that measure, they're nine points - that's THREE wins - from the first relegation spot. Either/or chance of finishing third or getting relegated then, surely?

The lesson of this is that they can only be judged by their current league position, not hypothetical ones. And their current position is dreadful.

As far as I can see, they're still in the FA Cup, still in the League Cup, still in the Champions League, and this is a write off? Do you think they won't qualify for the Champions League next season with Wenger in charge? Because if they do, then they've done what is expected of them, given their budget.

Arsenal are not serious competitiors for the CL, and their record in both domestic competitions suggests they'll finish the season with hee-haw, again. the title is already absolutely finished for them and the advent calendars are barely opened.

Finishing in the CL places one year is indeed about what you'd expect. Finishing in ever distant fourth places, with no other success to compensate, is a distinct underachievement. Even Liverpool can win domestic and European trophies.

Just thought I'd look up some stats btw. After 15 games this season, Arsenal have won 5, drawn 6, and lost 4. After 15 games last season, Arsenal had won 9, drawn 2, and lost 4. So they have lost the same number of games, but have drawn more. Its not great, but it hardly merits the hysteria you seem to have come out with. Lets keep this sensible eh?

So what you're saying is, Arsenal are doing much worse than last season, with almost 50% fewer league wins. A glowing endorsement for Wenger's rebuilding project...

[vikingTON]

Simple question. Do you think they will finish outside the top 4?

I think it's about a 40-60 shot that they will finish in the top 4.

[Quitongo's Left Peg]

So far I've decided against commenting on whether it's time for Arsene to go. But for what it's worth, here's my view.

I've always been in the camp of 'In Arsene We Trust', believing that with the financial restrictions in place until FFP kicks in and/or the stadium is paid off that Arsene is doing the best job that anyone could. As far as the 'backroom' side of things goes, he's doing very well. Slashing the budgets, saving the club money and helping the club be prepared for the future of football (ie living within your means). It just doesn't seem like his heart is in it anymore on the touchline.

During his interview after the Swansea defeat he was rightly exasperated, but lacked the passion he's shown for so long. I honestly believe that there is more money to spend than he is, and it's this stubborn attitude that's holding the club back. No longer are Arsenal using their extensive scouting network to bring through gems like they once did. Whether that's down to a willingness or not is up for debate. My take is that now more and more clubs (with money to throw about) are using the previous Arsenal model of extensive youth scouting, and can offer that little bit more of a lucrative contract to secure the players. As this has gone on over the years, Arsenal have reverted to the tried and tested route of buying average players that aren't good enough to lace the boots of their previous incumbents. An example for me would be Cesc Fabregas, now replaced by Mikel Arteta. MA is a decent level EPL player, but when they panic bought him from Everton, surely a better idea would have been to persue the younger and better player in Fellaini? Especially if they had an idea of Song's imminent departure.

Lukas Podolski is a good signing IMO, as is Olivier Giroud. But what Arsenal desperately needed to do in the summer was INVEST in a goalscorer. Llorente is notoriously unsettled in Bilbao and would be an excellent signing and would have represented a more 'out of the box' signing from AW. Mario Mandzukic was available on a free last summer, and certainly would have provided stiffer competition for the Arsenal front line than Chamakh ever would. Bayern also added Shaqiri from Basel and Martinez from Bilbao. All three were 'open' to EPL moves, all three would have made Arsenal a much stronger team. It's been clear that Sagna is too injury prone to be our reliable right-back especially when the other option after Bacary is (the albeit much improved) Carl Jenkinson. Kieron Gibbs is not good enough to control the left of defence for a team of Arsenal's stature, and don't even get me started on the defensive frailties of Andre Santos' game. If you have a defence who has two weak areas in it's fullbacks, you're never going to win everything. A new reserve goalkeeper with experience is needed and (maybe it's just my Scottish bias) but Craig Gordon is available on a free as was Allan McGregor in the summer. Both would strengthen the goalkeeping area.

These are all areas that need strengthened or freshened up. This could have been financed by clearing the deadwood from the squad. People like Squillaci (yes, he's still there), Djourou, Arshavin, Chamakh, Fabianski and Gervinho would all have suitors in the everly richer Ligue 1, Russian Premier League or similar. They may have to take a hit in transfer fees but that would be recouped in the saved wages. Arsene seems to be reluctant to let players go for whatever reason. Is it an inherent desire to prove everyone wrong, and hope that they finally show something in an Arsenal jersey? I think it could be.

It's taken a lot of heart for me to say this, but I fear it's time for Arsene to relinquish his managerial role at the club and move upstairs. I'm not sure a project man like AW would fancy a new job at this stage in his career, but he should be offered a behind the scenes role to finish his project at Arsenal. The natural conclusion of his project now no longer remains on the touchline. The board should push the boat out and appoint Pep Guardiola or Jurgen Klopp in my opinion. They are the two most natural successors to Wenger's crown and if the good things AW has done at the club are to continue without being wasted, then a manager of that ilk has to be the priority. I think AW will remain in charge this season, and I think we will fail in our attempt to make the Champions League next season. That will make things a lot harder, but I can't see AW being removed from his position during the season.