Ched Evans

[H_B]

The victim claims she can't remember anything, the two men's accounts tally. The hotel guy doesn't seem to contradict them. .

You'll need to expand here.

The "hotel guy" corroborated earlier witnesses relating to the level of intoxication of the victim.

[H_B]

Also, the victim was a friend of McDonald's.

Also, "While en route to the room the porter heard her say to McDonald "You're not going to leave me, are you?" "

McDonald, who was also on trial, gave evidence that the complainant approached him in Queen Street. He asked her where she was going. She replied by asking where he was going. He said that he was going to his hotel and she said that she would go with him. He then sent the text message in case the applicant was worried about where he had gone. According to McDonald's evidence, in the hotel room sexual activity was initiated by the complainant. She gave every indication that she was enthusiastic and enjoying herself. He did not force her to do anything she did not wish.

This might be an interesting read for those who want some answers as to the jury's position.

https://www.crimeline.info/case/r-v-ched-evans-chedwyn-evans

[Ross.]

You'll need to expand here.

The "hotel guy" corroborated earlier witnesses relating to the level of intoxication of the victim.

Did the porter not listen in at the door and say that it sounded as though the girl was enjoying herself after Ched went in? I probably should read more into it, but the whole thing is just a bit sleazy.

[AberdeenBud]

Also, the victim was a friend of McDonald's.

Also, "While en route to the room the porter heard her say to McDonald "You're not going to leave me, are you?" "

McDonald, who was also on trial, gave evidence that the complainant approached him in Queen Street. He asked her where she was going. She replied by asking where he was going. He said that he was going to his hotel and she said that she would go with him. He then sent the text message in case the applicant was worried about where he had gone. According to McDonald's evidence, in the hotel room sexual activity was initiated by the complainant. She gave every indication that she was enthusiastic and enjoying herself. He did not force her to do anything she did not wish.

This might be an interesting read for those who want some answers as to the jury's position.

https://www.crimeline.info/case/r-v-ched-evans-chedwyn-evans

Thanks for that. A lot more complex and nuanced that what's presented on that awful website, but I can see why the jury lent the way it did.

[H_B]

Thanks for that. A lot more complex and nuanced that what's presented on that awful website, but I can see why the jury lent the way it did.

Yeah - even reading that it's clear that it could have gone the other way for McDonald.

It's also clear that a different jury might well have found Evans not guilty.

[DigOutYourSoul]

Thing is, surely people meet in nightclubs and go home together pished all the time?

If that counts as rape then a lot of people are rapists.

I can understand why men must not take advantage if a woman is too drunk to consent, but then what's the story if the guy has also been out drinking?

Surely if not remembering what happened constitutes rape, then every Sunday morning a fair few people - male and female - wake up as rapists?

It's a tough line because there are a number of examples of 'crying wolf' so to speak when it comes to drinken girls and footballers so it's a tough line. I know the Evans case is different but there are numerous examples of this - not just in football which nmake the whole situation more difficult.

[Ross.]

Yeah - even reading that it's clear that it could have gone the other way for McDonald.

It's also clear that a different jury might well have found Evans not guilty.

Definitely.

For me, from what I have read now I would think that both would have to be found guilty.

"A complainant consents if, and only if, she has the freedom and capacity to make a choice, and she exercised that choice to agree to sexual intercourse."

[H_B]

Definitely.

For me, from what I have read now I would think that both would have to be found guilty.

"A complainant consents if, and only if, she has the freedom and capacity to make a choice, and she exercised that choice to agree to sexual intercourse."

What it doesn't make clear (though perhaps implies with 'close friends') is whether the victim and McDonald have a sexual history.

Of course that doesn't mean rape is impossible (you can of course have rape within any relationship of any duration) but in a jury's mind, the fact the victim willingly went with McDonald to the hotel, and was previously an acquaintance of him makes a difference.

[Tom McB]

Actually, it's not as much an application of the law as of a jury's judgement of his behaviour.

Hah, equivocator. He was tried under the law and found guilty.

Is that better?

[Supras]

Interesting article on the issue here - http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21621819-californias-new-standard-consent-future-america-yes-means-yes-says-mr.

This is quite an illuminating quote regarding a new consent standard for California colleges:

“Under this consent standard, if one partner touches his or her partner in a sexual way, and the person says ‘I am not interested tonight,’ that person has already committed sexual assault because he or she didn’t get permission upfront,”

Although what on earth colleges are doing judging rape cases with academics is anyone's guess.

[Tom McB]

Evans has served his time, he should still be able to earn a living.

Pay him the average wage of a semi skilled worker in Sheffield and make the club stump up the rest of what would have been his wage to rape charities.

So, the legal punishment is not enough?

Daily Mail reader found.

[Cliche Guevara]

What it doesn't make clear (though perhaps implies with 'close friends') is whether the victim and McDonald have a sexual history.

Of course that doesn't mean rape is impossible (you can of course have rape within any relationship of any duration) but in a jury's mind, the fact the victim willingly went with McDonald to the hotel, and was previously an acquaintance of him makes a difference.

I think you've mis-read that. It's Evans and McDonald who are referred to as 'close friends'.

My Mrs runs a sexual offences unit and has to prosecute these kinds of cases all the time. It's a total minefield and really difficult to tell from one case to the next what's actually happened and the definition of rape is looking more and more arbitrary as we go on. I think society certainly has some catching up to do with the law on this one.

In this case I still can't understand how the jury came to its conclusion. It seems to me that it hung on whether Evans could reasonably have believed that consent was being given and that capacity existed to give consent. I'd suggest that with the girl already having sex, and requesting he perform a sexual act on her, that she had sufficient awareness and decision-making capacity. Or at least he could reasonably believe she did. If anything the course of events and the girl's condition when she was with McDonald could potentially cast more doubt on her ability to consent, in my view. Ultimately McDonald has been found to be a rapist but not been aware he was being a rapist which has proved the difference.

I'm not a High Court Judge, however, so what do I know. I'll run this past the Mrs however and see what her take is on it.

[H_B]

Hah, equivocator. He was tried under the law and found guilty.

Is that better?

I wasn't disputing the validity of his conviction, but some offences are strict interpretations of the law, whereas in cases like this it's a lot more down to a jury's interpretation than any particularly tricky point of law.

[H_B]

I think you've mis-read that. It's Evans and McDonald who are referred to as 'close friends'.

Ah sorry - I thuoght it was relating to the girl and McDonald.

Apologies.

[Cliche Guevara]

I wasn't disputing the validity of his conviction, but some offences are strict interpretations of the law, whereas in cases like this it's a lot more down to a jury's interpretation than any particularly tricky point of law.

I think the issue here is it's both.

It's an extremely difficult point of law and you have to second-guess the Mens Rea: did Evans and McDonald know they were having sex with someone who did not have capacity to consent? McDonald was felt to fall on the side of the line where he didn't know, and Evans was felt to fall on the side of the line where he did know. How precise is that? Both men pretty much doing the same thing at the same time, and one is a rapist and the other is not. This is where we're at now and I don't envy anyone involved in trying to achieve justice in such a situation.

[Tom McB]

I wasn't disputing the validity of his conviction, but some offences are strict interpretations of the law, whereas in cases like this it's a lot more down to a jury's interpretation than any particularly tricky point of law.

I know, I was only being pedantic. Not all rape cases are he said, she said, this one appears to be of that type though. I would hate to sit on a jury for this type of case tbh.

[Tom McB]

I think the issue here is it's both.

It's an extremely difficult point of law and you have to second-guess the Mens Rea: did Evans and McDonald know they were having sex with someone who did not have capacity to consent? McDonald was felt to fall on the side of the line where he didn't know, and Evans was felt to fall on the side of the line where he did know. How precise is that? Both men pretty much doing the same thing at the same time, and one is a rapist and the other is not. This is where we're at now and I don't envy anyone involved in trying to achieve justice in such a situation.

One of the best posts in the thread, Bravo.

[Jambomo]

Interesting article on the issue here - http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21621819-californias-new-standard-consent-future-america-yes-means-yes-says-mr.

This is quite an illuminating quote regarding a new consent standard for California colleges:

Although what on earth colleges are doing judging rape cases with academics is anyone's guess.

I am surprised they can get away with not reporting it to the police. I wonder if they are the judges on all crimes on campus or if they report any to the police.

[dazza71]

Speaking to sheff u fans at the weekend, the girl ched slep with was off her face on drugs at the time of the incident.

[KD1711]

They found traces of cocaine/canabis in her body when they tested her did they not? I find it hard to believe that despite only going drinking from 12am when she finished her shift to 3am she was blackout drunk.