Sons' sorrow

[O'Kelly Isley III]

37 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

Is this test even a thing? Always loads of shouting from fans about how such and such can pass a fit and proper persons test but I don't think it exists. 

As I already posted, at the time of the Cognitive takeover the then Board was apparently presented with a 'fait accompli' on the club purchase, and I seem to recall a two-page article in the Lennox Herald in which it was stated that everything was kosher with regards to the SFA.

And so it would be, as the SFA seems wholly relaxed about clubs marking their own homework, and if the DFC Board were totally out of the loop then there would literally be nothing to see here Guv.

Some might argue that both the club and the SFA were effectively sleeping at the wheel, but I couldn't possibly comment on that.  And I think the reason that the SFA are relaxed is that the last thing they want is flam at any club which could reignite controversy over the Dave King situation at Ibrox.

In essence I think the test is a chimera Moonster.

 

[pleslie99]

55 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

Is this test even a thing? Always loads of shouting from fans about how such and such can pass a fit and proper persons test but I don't think it exists. 

The amount of Scheisters that get to run clubs up and down the country, if it does exist it’s not fit for purpose or is extremely easy to manipulate 

[microdave]

1 hour ago, The Moonster said:

Is this test even a thing? Always loads of shouting from fans about how such and such can pass a fit and proper persons test but I don't think it exists. 

Martindale had to go through a test, albeit after he'd been the Livi manager for a while. I didn't know if owners etc had to do it or not hence me asking. I think Oki has probably answered correctly. You'd think there would be one and embarrassment for the authorities shouldn't come into it.

[TamCarson]

With regards to players coming in, we'll probably get the pick of the litter. Farrell will have promised them we will win the league, and after all players want medals, not money. Ha ha

[DFCTTFM]

I've seen someone on twitter saying there is rumours of us signing Nathan Austin... no idea if there is any truth to it but I would love him at the rock!

[THE CHOSEN SON]

I’ve seen the name Lewis Martin kicking around. Don’t know much about him, a CB recently released from Kelty and I vaguely remember him at Dunfermline a few years ago.

[Beachcomber]

1 hour ago, DFCTTFM said:

I've seen someone on twitter saying there is rumours of us signing Nathan Austin... no idea if there is any truth to it but I would love him at the rock!

Under contract at Kelty and from/stays in Methil.

I read he has a young family, would be surprised if he fancied trecking through to Dumbarton twice a week.

Edited May 21, 2023 by Beachcomber

[BazMac]

8 hours ago, pleslie99 said:

The amount of Scheisters that get to run clubs up and down the country, if it does exist it’s not fit for purpose or is extremely easy to manipulate 

Is there a fit and proper test for fit and proper tests?

[Skyline Drifter]

9 hours ago, microdave said:

I've been wondering if Andy Hosie has been subject to a fit and proper person test by the sfa. He's obviously not a cognitive director but surely a major shareholder of the company which is a major shareholder of the club would have to pass this test. It's no secret that he's involved given the statement on the os when cognitive capital took control lauded his involvement.

 

9 hours ago, The Moonster said:

Is this test even a thing? Always loads of shouting from fans about how such and such can pass a fit and proper persons test but I don't think it exists. 

It is a thing.....but not for shareholders. The SFA cannot directly involve itself in who owns shares, only on who runs clubs.

[DFCTTFM]

9 hours ago, Beachcomber said:

Under contract at Kelty and from/stays in Methil.

I read he has a young family, would be surprised if he fancied trecking through to Dumbarton twice a week.

Yeah guess that rules him out, have no idea why he was rumoured to come here... thanks for clearing that up.

Edited May 22, 2023 by DFCTTFM

[O'Kelly Isley III]

7 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

 

It is a thing.....but not for shareholders. The SFA cannot directly involve itself in who owns shares, only on who runs clubs.

Thanks for that distinction.  Imagine if there arose a situation where a majority shareholder of a club who was serving out a Directorship ban imposed by the FCA installed a nominee as a Director on the club BOD, but they themselves continued to run the club on an 'advisor' basis.  Would the club BOD be entitled to approach the SFA on the shareholders behalf in respect of the 'fit and proper person' test if they felt so inclined ?

Edited May 22, 2023 by O'Kelly Isley III

[Skyline Drifter]

42 minutes ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

Thanks for that distinction.  Imagine if there arose a situation where a majority shareholder of a club who was serving out a Directorship ban imposed by the FCA installed a nominee as a Director on the club BOD, but they themselves continued to run the club on an 'advisor' basis.  Would the club BOD be entitled to approach the SFA on the shareholders behalf in respect of the 'fit and proper person' test if they felt so inclined ?

Then the question presumably is whether the "nominee" is acting in a fit and proper way or not. And he IS a member of the BoD so you're asking if the Board could report itself? I suppose the answer is likely yes, although technically I doubt they'd be doing so on behalf of the minority shareholders. It's a whole can of worms you're opening right there.

At the end of the day you'd need to ask the SFA the question. I'm not sure it would need to come from the Board of Directors per se. I'm not sure there's anything to stop you asking the question on behalf of the Trust if you wanted. I really don't know though.

[BallochSonsFan]

The question would really be whether or not Hosie was acting as a shadow director, which for a banned person would be illegal.

[O'Kelly Isley III]

46 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Then the question presumably is whether the "nominee" is acting in a fit and proper way or not. And he IS a member of the BoD so you're asking if the Board could report itself? I suppose the answer is likely yes, although technically I doubt they'd be doing so on behalf of the minority shareholders. It's a whole can of worms you're opening right there.

At the end of the day you'd need to ask the SFA the question. I'm not sure it would need to come from the Board of Directors per se. I'm not sure there's anything to stop you asking the question on behalf of the Trust if you wanted. I really don't know though.

Thanks again for responding, and you have very correctly identified our can of worms.  As of now the 'nominee' has to all intents and purposes vacated the building - he was in my estimation based on personal contact not the sort of person I would want at the club - and the company which owns the majority shareholding currently lists no Directors, although you had already covered that.

In truth, the time for any approach to the SFA has probably now passed and the support base may need to deal with it.

[The Moonster]

I'd be happy with the Trust opening this can of worms. The worst that happens is the SFA find nothing wrong, but now seems like the right time to try and hit Hosie, when he's scrambling to find someone to sit in his place. 

[Neilly]

11 hours ago, Beachcomber said:

Under contract at Kelty and from/stays in Methil.

I read he has a young family, would be surprised if he fancied trecking through to Dumbarton twice a week.

He's not under contract. Confirmed by the club last week he will be leaving.

[Skyline Drifter]

5 minutes ago, Neilly said:

He's not under contract. Confirmed by the club last week he will be leaving.

No it wasn't. Completely the opposite.

https://keltyhearts.co.uk/initial-squad-update/

[George Parr]

On 17/05/2023 at 17:46, BallochSonsFan said:

 

The club owns, or at least owned, all of the land that the ground sits on. The whole site, as far as it's boundaries. Planning permission was granted on a parcel of the land - the 2 corners nearest the housing development and the strip of land behind the dugouts that connect the 2. That planning permission has exhausted and is now subject to a planning committee decision on whether or not to renew permission. Permission has been sought for a combination of flats and houses. That development land is also subject to securities granted to a company called Pendragon Group Limited. In effect, that land has been mortgaged and used as security for a loan taken from Pendragon. So who took the loan?

A combination of Cognitive Capital and More Homes DFC.

The club's majority shareholder, and a wholly owned subsidiary that is currently headed by an architect, borrowed money and used the development land as security. Meaning that much like your house and your mortgage provider, if the borrower defaults on the loan then the lender exercises its security to try and get its money back. Whether or not ownership of the development land was ever transferred to Cognitive or More Homes DFC is very unclear. What is clear is that the status of the development land is under serious question because of monies borrowed against it by companies other than Dumbarton Football Club. The dates of all of this are very interesting.

Awfully convenient that. Atkinson (the architect) becomes the director of More Homes. Kristofferson and Dermott become directors of the club. Kristofferson and Dermott almost immediately grant security over the development land to Pendragon in exchange for money borrowed.. None of the money borrowed makes its way to the football club and is instead paid to More Homes DFC and Cognitive Capital. Andy Hosie becomes the majority (possibly even sole) shareholder in Cognitive Capital. All in the space of 6 days. I've seen previous mention somewhere that when the security was granted, there was a future financial consideration that would be payable to the club on the successful development of the land. I've seen that reported as being £1.5million. Unfortunately I can't recall exactly where I saw it.

 

Thanks for the comprehensive note, very helpful.

The above excerpt sounds an alarm to me that it's more important than ever we get to the bottom of the "Golden" C share applicability question. With rodents lurking, we need reasonable certainty that a parcel of land cannot become the entire site.

The future financial consideration information is set out as a note in DFC's accounts - under Related Party Transactions. The balance of the proceeds was(is) due to be paid in April 2023 and April 2026. Presumably those dates will have shifted somewhat when we get eyes on a fresh set of accounts.

[1320Lichtie]

35 minutes ago, Skyline Drifter said:

No it wasn't. Completely the opposite.

https://keltyhearts.co.uk/initial-squad-update/

Think they are definitely willing to let him leave though, not sure what’s gone on but there seems to be some kind of situation going on there with him. 

[Greenmachine]

39 minutes ago, 1320Lichtie said:

Think they are definitely willing to let him leave though, not sure what’s gone on but there seems to be some kind of situation going on there with him. 

Kelty won’t have the same money available given that their benefactor has shifted to Raith Rovers.