Independence - how would you vote?

[DeeGas]

'Darling is me darlin,me darling,me darlin.

Darling is me darlin and Salmond can't be found!'

[Saor Alba]

Reynard is nearly dead. He's a living, nearly breathing placard of unionism. Dementia is a horrible illness, be kind with him.

Indeed, thankfully, in Scotland at least, bigoted racist toffee-nosed unionists are fast becoming dying inbreeds.

[Ad Lib]

I hope you were trying to get someone to bite

I'm disappointed at P&B these days. No fun any more.

[wirez]

Imagine being opposed to your own country being independent. It's just not normal.

Scotland is a medium sized 1st world economy and has the potential to be a fair and progressive society.

The case for independence is compelling. I have not heard one attempt at an argument against which isn't either a pack of lies or just desperate garbage.

How can these people lie to themselves like this, and why?

In the no/undecided camp there are some that are confused, some that are scared, some that are ignorant.....

But then we have the individuals we see on this thread. They have the facts and reasonings but choose to ignore them. My only conclusion is that as individuals they are self-hating wee shrivelled bawbags

The people of Scotland will see through their pish & venom

[Baxter Parp]

See, that's what doesn't add up. I understand that there are people who say "Independence first, sort out the rest later", but that just leads to the SNP saying anything at all to get support. I don't for a second believe the SNP would lower corporation tax - far too many of their senior figures would baulk at such a prospect and a lot of the support they've taken from Labour in recent years would throw a hissy fit.

So the SNP are to all intents and purposes, lying. They flip-flop around like newly caught fish - on NATO, on the EU, on the Euro, on the Pound, who knows what they'll say tomorrow?

All the parties are lying, self-serving, undemocratic structures but the consequences of voting for independence based on the pie-in-the-sky promises of the SNP are a step too far.

So you'll be able to point out the errors and lies then? Please do so.

[Baxter Parp]

I would suggest that the two sides in this debate are miles apart, I am firm in my views and I have heard nothing that will change my mind, I now have my life to get on with

You've decided that nothing the Yes campaign says will change your mind, that's a different thing. Even if they are stone cold facts.

[Baxter Parp]

My 6 points are valid, the error was on the 1979 vote

Your 6 points are invalid as is your belief that the 1979 vote was for independence. Doesn't that tell you that you should probably do a little research?

[Baxter Parp]

I am glad to see that the "yes" voters are very much taking the SNP line, which is to behave in such a condescending manner towards anyone who does not share their view, it is a free vote its not about who can SHOUT THE LOUDEST

One question what size of defeat will the SNP attempt to claim a "moral" victory, if they get 40% of the vote, 35%?

translation: "I have nothing to say and yet I demand the right to say it".

[Baxter Parp]

You would then accuse Cameron of overstepping into Scottish matters. The London-knows-best cliche would be thrown all over the place. It's entirely a devolved matter: the Scottish No campaign should justify their own position. Cameron's entirely right to not debate Salmond.

Who is he "right" to debate with then? Personally, I think a debate with Salmond and Cameron would be hilarious.

[Mushroom]

Did you know that our present first past the post system means that in the 2005 election only One out of 635 mps , yes just one , uno, eins of the 635 MPs actually managed a majority of the constituent vote!!!!!!!!!

I bet that was Bercow too. Another flaw with the Westminster system is that the speakers constituency, to all intents and purposes - don't actually get to vote.

edit- checked, wasn't him astonishingly. Lots of protest votes, not enough to outnumber the braindead sadly. Wonder where it was then?

[Assasinach]

i'd heard Scotland would like trains direct to the two main city airports (Paisley and embra)

sod that , who's gonna pay the over budget on our worlds longest guided bus (embra tram scale but not mentioned) and the new north city railway station down here in my fenland city????

Union dividend

[Savage Henry]

Who is he "right" to debate with then? Personally, I think a debate with Salmond and Cameron would be hilarious.

Cameron can debate with whoever he wants, but the fact is this is an entirely devolved matter and he should keep out of it. What would the point of a Cameron versus Salmond debate be? Neither party will convince anyone from the opposite field.

Salmond versus whoever the Better Together campaign want to put forward is fine. A debate between dissenting Scottish voices would give guiding principles from both Yes and No, and provide a Scottish voice for those non-committed voters.

I don't see why Cameron and Salmond would be hilarious at all, but if it was, wouldn't Cameron just send William Hague up? Hague, for all that he's wrong about most things, is arguably the finest debater in the House and would probably make Salmond look stupid. But the point is, it isn't about debating qualities. It's about how in touch, how central the debaters are in the campaign. Cameron's an outsider to all intents and purposes.

[xbl]

See, that's what doesn't add up. I understand that there are people who say "Independence first, sort out the rest later", but that just leads to the SNP saying anything at all to get support. I don't for a second believe the SNP would lower corporation tax - far too many of their senior figures would baulk at such a prospect and a lot of the support they've taken from Labour in recent years would throw a hissy fit.

So the SNP are to all intents and purposes, lying. They flip-flop around like newly caught fish - on NATO, on the EU, on the Euro, on the Pound, who knows what they'll say tomorrow?

What flip flopping? Nato was the only thing in the list above that they changed policy on.

As for all their post independence policies, they can say whatever they want because all they are doing is saying what they will do IF they get elected post independence. At least you appreciate that they can't give guarantees, maybe you should tell your fellow no campaigners when they demand to know how much internet will cost in an independent Scotland (actual better together demand!)

[Reynard]

What flip flopping? Nato was the only thing in the list above that they changed policy on.

As for all their post independence policies, they can say whatever they want because all they are doing is saying what they will do IF they get elected post independence. At least you appreciate that they can't give guarantees, maybe you should tell your fellow no campaigners when they demand to know how much internet will cost in an independent Scotland (actual better together demand!)

The blatant lying about the EU membership, NATO, the Euro, the currency.

They haven't got a fucking clue and they have been absolutely busking it and lying for years now.

they didn't have their shit together at the start of this campaignand were absolutely caught out.

Only their imbecile fanboys attempt to defend them.

[Reynard]

Here is a great story about how the SNP are still lying to us on the issue of Europe. Had look for it on Newsnut but they only seem to be doing the clapping seal thing for their masters.

FRANCE and Spain would not accept an independent Scotland into the European Union, a European Parliament vice-president has claimed.

Alejo Vidal-Quadras, an MEP from Catalonia who opposes the region’s independence from Spain, said France and Spain “will surely not” accept an independent Scotland.

The SNP government hopes to negotiate its EU membership – including opt-outs from the euro, free travel areas and a budget cut – in the period between the referendum in September 2014 and its proposed independence day in March 2016.

Mr Quadras, speaking at the European Parliament in Strasbourg, described this timescale as “pure fantasy” and the hope of securing opt-outs “a dream”.

Any nation seceding from a member state will face obstacles from its former state and from other member states with secessionist movements, he said.

When asked whether these states would accept an independent Scotland, Mr Quadras said: “France and Spain, surely not. The UK, probably not. Don’t forget Spain has not yet recognised Kosovo.”

Mr Quadras said the SNP “are not telling the truth to the Scottish people” on the EU’s requirement for border controls with England.

“If we make a big effort of imagination and imagine a Scotland separated from the UK and a member of the EU, and Scotland is in Schengen [the passport-free travel area] and the UK is not, then there will of course be a border between both countries, with border controls and everything.”

The row came as Flemish nationalist MEP Mark Demesmaeker said Scotland’s membership negotiations will be more difficult if it insists on EU opt-outs.

Mr Demesmaeker said: “We don’t believe in Europe a-la-carte, but there could be good reasons for Scotland to ask because they are enjoying these opt-outs now.”

The SNP have been making it all up as they go along. I especially enjoyed the last line there. Excellent.

[Mr Rational]

As soon as he said he was from Catalunya there was an agenda.

As for Cameron not debating because its a Scottish only matter, well he seems to be doing a rare job of canvassing do the union every time he's up here. So he should either agree to a debate or stay out of it completely.

[xbl]

Yawn. Load of rubbish. A bit like your lies on this issue.

[Reynard]

As soon as he said he was from Catalunya there was an agenda.

As for Cameron not debating because its a Scottish only matter, well he seems to be doing a rare job of canvassing do the union every time he's up here. So he should either agree to a debate or stay out of it completely.

Tell me, do you think this agenda will somehow disappear IF Scotland separates?

I don't.

Cameron can flick the vicks at Salmond all he likes from now on. He gave Salmond the rope and now we are all enjoying watching fatso kill himself.

[xbl]

Its irrelevant. We are going to be in the EU. Oh, and how come Romania isn't in schengen despite asking, and yet Scotland will be forced to be?

You don't know what you are talking about, do you?

[DeeGas]

Here is a great story about how the SNP are still lying to us on the issue of Europe. Had look for it on Newsnut but they only seem to be doing the clapping seal thing for their masters.

FRANCE and Spain would not accept an independent Scotland into the European Union, a European Parliament vice-president has claimed.

Alejo Vidal-Quadras, an MEP from Catalonia who opposes the region’s independence from Spain, said France and Spain “will surely not” accept an independent Scotland.

The SNP government hopes to negotiate its EU membership – including opt-outs from the euro, free travel areas and a budget cut – in the period between the referendum in September 2014 and its proposed independence day in March 2016.

Mr Quadras, speaking at the European Parliament in Strasbourg, described this timescale as “pure fantasy” and the hope of securing opt-outs “a dream”.

Any nation seceding from a member state will face obstacles from its former state and from other member states with secessionist movements, he said.

When asked whether these states would accept an independent Scotland, Mr Quadras said: “France and Spain, surely not. The UK, probably not. Don’t forget Spain has not yet recognised Kosovo.”

Mr Quadras said the SNP “are not telling the truth to the Scottish people” on the EU’s requirement for border controls with England.

“If we make a big effort of imagination and imagine a Scotland separated from the UK and a member of the EU, and Scotland is in Schengen [the passport-free travel area] and the UK is not, then there will of course be a border between both countries, with border controls and everything.”

The row came as Flemish nationalist MEP Mark Demesmaeker said Scotland’s membership negotiations will be more difficult if it insists on EU opt-outs.

Mr Demesmaeker said: “We don’t believe in Europe a-la-carte, but there could be good reasons for Scotland to ask because they are enjoying these opt-outs now.”

The SNP have been making it all up as they go along. I especially enjoyed the last line there. Excellent.

No surprise,Salmond is 'busy' creating headaches and problems for all concerned.

Looking forward to Rab C's explanation as I've been practicing my powers of ESP and I might just be able to pick up an excuse or two.....