All things Dundee FC

[Wee jeemie]

Sure when Stephen Thomson was on the SFA board , we got United away 3 times , he managed to rig it so the 4th game was at tannadice even though we had played there twice already that season 

[wearedarkblue87]

6 hours ago, Tam Carsons Neck said:

Obviously the Dark Side are back in the same league as us next season so done some digging re derby fixtures from the past as knew there was an imbalance.The top 6/bottom 6 split has been on the go since 00/01 season which means there's only 3 Derbies guaranteed.In this time,there's been 9 times when Dundee and Utd have been in the top flight together.As a side note,when Celtic and Rangers and Hibs and Hearts have been in the same league,its been alternated every season re who gets the 1st home game.(which therefore guarantees 2 home games).

In seasons 00/01 & 14/15 Dundee have been at home first.In the other 7 seasons(01/02,02/03,03/04,04/05,12/13,15/16 and 21/22)Utd have been at home.7 seasons out of 9.

The other season we played in the same division(Championship in Covid season of 19/20),Utd also had 2 home to our 1.(albeit this couldn't be helped,although you would think the next time we were in the same league they would redress the balance.2 years later we were and they never).

If this was happening in the 2 other derbies there would be uproar as these games are the biggest earners for both clubs.About time our board grew a set and pointed this out as it's a big deal.Got a feeling it'll be Utd at home first again next season due to the pitch shenanigans.

United will get the 2 guaranteed home fixtures against us as per usual. Our board should be questioning it but they won't.

[RawB93]

Maybe our pitch would be better if the establishment wasn’t out to get us. 
Sad, really. 

[Derry Alli]

36 minutes ago, RawB93 said:

Maybe our pitch would be better if the establishment wasn’t out to get us. 
Sad, really. 

It's the price we pay for having big swingin' dicks, unfortunately.

[witchfindergeneral]

7 hours ago, Tam Carsons Neck said:

Obviously the Dark Side are back in the same league as us next season so done some digging re derby fixtures from the past as knew there was an imbalance.The top 6/bottom 6 split has been on the go since 00/01 season which means there's only 3 Derbies guaranteed.In this time,there's been 9 times when Dundee and Utd have been in the top flight together.As a side note,when Celtic and Rangers and Hibs and Hearts have been in the same league,its been alternated every season re who gets the 1st home game.(which therefore guarantees 2 home games).

In seasons 00/01 & 14/15 Dundee have been at home first.In the other 7 seasons(01/02,02/03,03/04,04/05,12/13,15/16 and 21/22)Utd have been at home.7 seasons out of 9.

The other season we played in the same division(Championship in Covid season of 19/20),Utd also had 2 home to our 1.(albeit this couldn't be helped,although you would think the next time we were in the same league they would redress the balance.2 years later we were and they never).

If this was happening in the 2 other derbies there would be uproar as these games are the biggest earners for both clubs.About time our board grew a set and pointed this out as it's a big deal.Got a feeling it'll be Utd at home first again next season due to the pitch shenanigans.

Perhaps if the pair of yous stopped being yoyo clubs then the "imbalance" would finally be addressed  

[Dee Bliss]

12 hours ago, Tam Carsons Neck said:

Obviously the Dark Side are back in the same league as us next season so done some digging re derby fixtures from the past as knew there was an imbalance.The top 6/bottom 6 split has been on the go since 00/01 season which means there's only 3 Derbies guaranteed.In this time,there's been 9 times when Dundee and Utd have been in the top flight together.As a side note,when Celtic and Rangers and Hibs and Hearts have been in the same league,its been alternated every season re who gets the 1st home game.(which therefore guarantees 2 home games).

In seasons 00/01 & 14/15 Dundee have been at home first.In the other 7 seasons(01/02,02/03,03/04,04/05,12/13,15/16 and 21/22)Utd have been at home.7 seasons out of 9.

The other season we played in the same division(Championship in Covid season of 19/20),Utd also had 2 home to our 1.(albeit this couldn't be helped,although you would think the next time we were in the same league they would redress the balance.2 years later we were and they never).

If this was happening in the 2 other derbies there would be uproar as these games are the biggest earners for both clubs.About time our board grew a set and pointed this out as it's a big deal.Got a feeling it'll be Utd at home first again next season due to the pitch shenanigans.

Dont want to speak ill of the dead but that was down to that      Eddie Thompson when he was on the league’s board. Talk of sporting integrity…

[Dee Bliss]

13 hours ago, Tam Carsons Neck said:

Obviously the Dark Side are back in the same league as us next season so done some digging re derby fixtures from the past as knew there was an imbalance.The top 6/bottom 6 split has been on the go since 00/01 season which means there's only 3 Derbies guaranteed.In this time,there's been 9 times when Dundee and Utd have been in the top flight together.As a side note,when Celtic and Rangers and Hibs and Hearts have been in the same league,its been alternated every season re who gets the 1st home game.(which therefore guarantees 2 home games).

In seasons 00/01 & 14/15 Dundee have been at home first.In the other 7 seasons(01/02,02/03,03/04,04/05,12/13,15/16 and 21/22)Utd have been at home.7 seasons out of 9.

The other season we played in the same division(Championship in Covid season of 19/20),Utd also had 2 home to our 1.(albeit this couldn't be helped,although you would think the next time we were in the same league they would redress the balance.2 years later we were and they never).

If this was happening in the 2 other derbies there would be uproar as these games are the biggest earners for both clubs.About time our board grew a set and pointed this out as it's a big deal.Got a feeling it'll be Utd at home first again next season due to the pitch shenanigans.

 

Edited April 24 by Dee Bliss

[peebles_Dee]

Beck is a big loss I reckon but if we get 5th I reckon we will see him back on a short term loan. Europe qualification will give us access to high quality loans.

[Mr Gandosaur]

17 hours ago, Wee jeemie said:

Sure when Stephen Thomson was on the SFA board , we got United away 3 times , he managed to rig it so the 4th game was at tannadice even though we had played there twice already that season 

As has been mentioned we have been shafted with the guaranteed derbies before the split but we have never played at Tannadice 3 times in the league. 

01-02 and 15-16 when both were in the bottom 6, the 4th game was at Dens. 

14-15 the 4th game was at Tannadice having played twice at Dens that season (1-4 and 3-1) - we did play them in the League Cup that season at Tannadice aswell though. 

The 2 sides haven't been in the same half on any other occasion. 

[Derry Alli]

6 hours ago, peebles_Dee said:

Beck is a big loss I reckon but if we get 5th I reckon we will see him back on a short term loan. Europe qualification will give us access to high quality loans.

No chance. He'll be off the English championship next season at least.

[stu2910]

8 hours ago, peebles_Dee said:

Beck is a big loss I reckon but if we get 5th I reckon we will see him back on a short term loan. Europe qualification will give us access to high quality loans.

Would love for that to happen but I'd imagine they'd still rather send him to a bigger club down south than back here to play, in all likelihood, 2 European matches.  Hopefully even if he's not fit he gets a chance to come back for the Killie game to say bye.  It's something that we never managed to do with Gowser and potentially Kerr by the look of it - whatever people's thoughts on those 2 they at least earned that.

On Beck though, outside the mental era of the early 2000s, have we ever had a player make such an impact in so few games?

[capt_oats]

9 hours ago, peebles_Dee said:

Beck is a big loss I reckon but if we get 5th I reckon we will see him back on a short term loan. Europe qualification will give us access to high quality loans.

I think this is probably one of the biggest misconceptions fans have about "qualifying for Europe" at this level.

Which isn't a knock if you do end up qualifying but if you look at the various peer group clubs who have qualified for Europe in the time since Dundee last competed in European competition (us, St Johnstone, Killie, Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen, United etc) how many of them can you honestly say had access to any "high quality" loans as a direct result of qualifying for Europe that they wouldn't have had a decent chance of getting anyway.

You've got your tie in with Burnley and you got Beck through the door when you were a newly promoted side. The prospect of playing a few qualifying rounds in the Conference league isn't really going to make much difference in a club like say, Liverpool, deciding on whether Dundee is a good destination for their player to develop.

Edited April 25 by capt_oats

[Ludo*1]

58 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

I think this is probably one of the biggest misconceptions fans have about "qualifying for Europe" at this level.

Which isn't a knock if you do end up qualifying but if you look at the various peer group clubs who have qualified for Europe in the time since Dundee last competed in European competition (us, St Johnstone, Killie, Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen, United etc) how many of them can you honestly say had access to any "high quality" loans as a direct result of qualifying for Europe that they wouldn't have had a decent chance of getting anyway.

You've got your tie in with Burnley and you got Beck through the door when you were a newly promoted side. The prospect of playing a few qualifying rounds in the Conference league isn't really going to make much difference in a club like say, Liverpool, deciding on whether Dundee is a good destination for their player to develop.

There was a tour of our training facilities for season ticket holders at the start of the season and it was said that loan deals from England are largely based on the facilities. Apparently, the top English clubs grade potential loan clubs facilities and judge who they allow to a club based on that which is why we were able to secure Beck and about to secure another player for next season. 

It could well be an exaggeration by the people doing the tour but our training facilities are on par with some of the better English clubs that would be a potential loan destination ie, middling Championship/top end League 1 clubs hence how we beat a few English teams for Beck, got Jon McCracken in ahead of an English side and was the reason (alongside our partnership) that Burnley recalled Costelloe and Mellon from St Johnstone & Morecambe respectively and sent them to us.

Docherty continually points to the fact that clubs will also look at the success that most of our loans have had and take that into contention too.

[capt_oats]

1 hour ago, Ludo*1 said:

There was a tour of our training facilities for season ticket holders at the start of the season and it was said that loan deals from England are largely based on the facilities. Apparently, the top English clubs grade potential loan clubs facilities and judge who they allow to a club based on that which is why we were able to secure Beck and about to secure another player for next season. 

It could well be an exaggeration by the people doing the tour but our training facilities are on par with some of the better English clubs that would be a potential loan destination ie, middling Championship/top end League 1 clubs hence how we beat a few English teams for Beck, got Jon McCracken in ahead of an English side and was the reason (alongside our partnership) that Burnley recalled Costelloe and Mellon from St Johnstone & Morecambe respectively and sent them to us.

Docherty continually points to the fact that clubs will also look at the success that most of our loans have had and take that into contention too.

Aye, from what I can tell when it comes to loaning out their good players (as opposed to the dross that fills the Academy system) the clubs take a holistic approach as to where they place them.

Which is kind of my point.

Qualifying for Europe isn't really going to level you up, it's not going to unlock 'access' to a *better* quality of player which a lot of fans assume to be the case because *Europe*. And again, that's not a dig - it's just that whether or not a club is playing a couple of European qualifiers in July/August isn't really going to factor into the thinking of that sort of club if they think that you're a good place to send their players to develop.

Broadly speaking the "access" you'll have to players will be the same if you finish 6th and don't qualify for Europe as it would be if you finish 5th and get dropped into the qualifiers.

If Liverpool like what you've done with Beck then they're going to be open to sending you similar players regardless of whether you're playing Sligo Rovers or whoever in mid-July or not. 

On the point about the success of your loans, Kettlewell has been exactly the same with us pointing to James Furlong, Brodie Spencer, Georgie Gent, Jack Vale and the most obvious of the lot Mika Biereth.

It stands to reason if you have a track record of developing players (both your own and loans) rather than just parking them on the bench or freezing them out then your reputation will probably open doors for you. 

Edited April 25 by capt_oats

[Girth]

34 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

Aye, from what I can tell when it comes to loaning out their good players (as opposed to the dross that fills the Academy system) the clubs take a holistic approach as to where they place them.

Which is kind of my point.

Qualifying for Europe isn't really going to level you up, it's not going to unlock 'access' to a *better* quality of player which a lot of fans assume to be the case because *Europe*. And again, that's not a dig - it's just that whether or not a club is playing a couple of European qualifiers in July/August isn't really going to factor into the thinking of that sort of club if they think that you're a good place to send their players to develop.

Broadly speaking the "access" you'll have to players will be the same if you finish 6th and don't qualify for Europe as it would be if you finish 5th and get dropped into the qualifiers.

If Liverpool like what you've done with Beck then they're going to be open to sending you similar players regardless of whether you're playing Sligo Rovers or whoever in mid-July or not. 

On the point about the success of your loans, Kettlewell has been exactly the same with us pointing to James Furlong, Brodie Spencer, Georgie Gent, Jack Vale and the most obvious of the lot Mika Biereth.

It stands to reason if you have a track record of developing players (both your own and loans) rather than just parking them on the bench or freezing them out then your reputation will probably open doors for you. 

I've already started dusting off my passport for Sligo away. 

Thank you. 

[capt_oats]

10 minutes ago, Girth said:

I've already started dusting off my passport for Sligo away. 

Thank you. 

Sligo finished 8th (in a 10 team league) last season so unless you're just wanting to visit I'd hold off. 

[RandomGuy.]

This website shows you potential opponents as things get get clearer.

https://kassiesa.net/uefa/

[Pens_Dark]

Put it this way....having a new manager at Liverpool coming in is going to be a big factor on whether we would see Beck back for another season. I don't really have any care for their fortunes but the new manager coming in will want to hit the ground running and for that reason, with Robertson and Tsimikas ahead of him, I can't see Beck getting much of a look in.

We now have proof that if they wanted to keep him and a prospect for the future, that he will get regular game time and the chance to develop further. 

If January was anything to go on, though, we probably won't be the only ones looking for him either on a loan or transfer considering the old firm were sniffing around. 

[Ludo*1]

Speaking of training facilities... Courier is reporting that we've been given the go ahead to build our own training facilities and complex at Riverside.

[stu2910]

51 minutes ago, Ludo*1 said:

Speaking of training facilities... Courier is reporting that we've been given the go ahead to build our own training facilities and complex at Riverside.

That's a bit out of nowhere.  So essentially this would mean that the operation of the club and all first team activities would generally move to the stadium, while youths and girls would use riverside, with the community able to use both.  Would suggest no long term future for Gardyne unless I'm missing something.

Though reading it again it suggests that we are unlikely to build training facilities at the stadium and at riverside...so seems weird to be in the planning stages of both side by side unless we are basically hedging our bets in case one is rejected.

Edited April 25 by stu2910