5 more years of the Tories

[FuzzyAffro]

If I was left wing, even left of centre, and English, today I'd be seriously thinking about dismantling both the Labour party and the Liberal Democrats and forming some kind of new party.

Labour and the Liberals have completely failed to provide any kind of alternative to Tory rule and both are now so badly damaged they surely don't have any real political future.

There has to be a real left of centre force in English politics to prevent the break up of Britain in the very near future.

Why does the break up of Britain have to be prevented? Why not allow us to do whats best for us and England can do the same and Wales? Unionists are the most dogmatic people imaginable

[Uncle Psychosis]

Yes, but it's still Labour's responsibility to combat that and campaign positively to overcome it. Their abject failure to do so cannot be blamed on either the SNP or the Scottish electorate.

No, they can't "blame" anyone but themselves. The point I'm making is purely that its entirely wrong to suggest that the rise of the SNP had no effect at all on English votes. Its nonsense. Everyone up here would accept that strong polls for the Conservatives in England would affect the way Scots vote, its not so ridiculous that it works the other way round too.

Yep. The Tories, sad as it is to say, have played a blinder. How much influence the SNP's 56 seats actually has is another question.

The idea that England only voted Tory to keep the rogue Scots out doesn't stand up to any kind of scrutiny. It's like arguing Scotland voted SNP because of the independence movement. Far too simplistic, and actually detrimental to the numerous valid policies the SNP campaigned on.

It's not the only reason people voted Tory. Its one small reason out of many. Its also far too simplistic to pretend that the SNP had no effect on English voters. Do people honestly think that the English papers running dozens of front page stories about the horrors of the SNP didn't affect the vote? Some of the marginals have been won on a couple of hundred votes---in those scenarios you don't need many people to believe the front page of the Daily Mail before you get a seat changing hands.

I think if this is the message which Labour take from the election then they, like you, have missed the point.

Its not the message that I've taken and its not the message that the Labour party will take.

The only point I am making is that the SNP had some kind of effect on English votes and that pretending they had none is dishonest. Its nothing to do with dismissing the failures of the Labour party or dismissing the right of Scottish voters to vote for whoever they want. I just get pissed off when people make overly simplistic and absolutist claims like "even if we'd returned 59 Labour MPs England would have voted exactly the same". Its nonsense. Scotland couldn't have returned 59 Labour MPs without the whole election having been fought differently.

[honestly united]

I think its going to be extremely interesting to see what happens now the Tories are going it alone. I think there has been a big consensus that the economy is doing ok under them and a lot of people dont trust labour to run it after the mess they left it in last time.

However from my perspective the majority of the good policies and the turn round of the economy had been down to the work of the Lib Dems, and in general the Lib Dems kept Cameron in check and stopped them from going to far to the right. I was hoping for the coalition to continue for another 5 years, however i think 5 years will be enough for the Tories to trip themselves up.

Another worrying fact is the 10/12% of the vote that UKIP got, which is genuienly scary!

[FuzzyAffro]

No, they can't "blame" anyone but themselves. The point I'm making is purely that its entirely wrong to suggest that the rise of the SNP had no effect at all on English votes. Its nonsense. Everyone up here would accept that strong polls for the Conservatives in England would affect the way Scots vote, its not so ridiculous that it works the other way round too.

It's not the only reason people voted Tory. Its one small reason out of many. Its also far too simplistic to pretend that the SNP had no effect on English voters. Do people honestly think that the English papers running dozens of front page stories about the horrors of the SNP didn't affect the vote? Some of the marginals have been won on a couple of hundred votes---in those scenarios you don't need many people to believe the front page of the Daily Mail before you get a seat changing hands.

Its not the message that I've taken and its not the message that the Labour party will take.

The only point I am making is that the SNP had some kind of effect on English votes and that pretending they had none is dishonest. Its nothing to do with dismissing the failures of the Labour party or dismissing the right of Scottish voters to vote for whoever they want. I just get pissed off when people make overly simplistic and absolutist claims like "even if we'd returned 59 Labour MPs England would have voted exactly the same". Its nonsense. Scotland couldn't have returned 59 Labour MPs without the whole election having been fought differently.

So what, even if your fatuous point is correct what are you proposing we do about it in Scotland? The only fix to that is independence, presumably that's what you're proposing then.

[Uncle Psychosis]

So what, even if your fatuous point is correct what are you proposing we do about it in Scotland? The only fix to that is independence, presumably that's what you're proposing then.

I'm not proposing anything. I'm not a party strategist. The only thing I would propose is that you're a cretin.

[bob the tank]

Holyrood election next year

EU referendum 2017

Independence 2018

[FuzzyAffro]

I'm not proposing anything. I'm not a party strategist. The only thing I would propose is that you're a cretin.

Feeling's mutual

[Ya Bezzer!]

Why does the break up of Britain have to be prevented? Why not allow us to do whats best for us and England can do the same and Wales? Unionists are the most dogmatic people imaginable

I have never voted for anyone else but SNP and I'm 41. That's quite a few elections now so I don't think it does have to be prevented from where I'm sitting.

I was looking at the situation in that post from the perspective of a politically left leaning Englishman (or woman), many of whom I am friends with from university and who I've been talking too this morning and over the last few days.

If you are that person today looks pretty bleak on all sorts of scores, most of all the break up of Britain and the almost perpetual right wing rule down south.

I want independence and I voted for it in the referendum but I'm not hellbent on it at any cost, I want it because I think it would greatly benefit Scotland. If there was an alternative where Scotland could be given greater powers, and by that I mean full fiscal autonomy within the UK, I would certainly consider it but I am done with the current Westminster model of government.

If the left wing down south wants to have any future, I'm simply saying they must propose radical constitutional reform before they even begin to catch my ear.

A new party could be formed around proportional representation and some kind of federalist model of government. That's the only way I seem of the left offering a credible political offering to electorates on either side of the border.

But right now? Westminster - dead. Labour party - dead. Lib Dems - dead. Currently situation with Scotland within the union - completely untenable.

[Hillonearth]

Looking at how easily England has been gulled into another five years of Tory rule makes England look more and more like a foreign country we've got less and less in common with.

A bittersweet night - proud of what we've done up here, but well over time to say sayonara to the neighbours who seem incapable of making a rational decision.

[Savage Henry]

Looking at how easily England has been gulled into another five years of Tory rule makes England look more and more like a foreign country we've got less and less in common with.

A bittersweet night - proud of what we've done up here, but well over time to say sayonara to the neighbours who seem incapable of making a rational decision.

Is there not a contradiction there? Why is Scotland voting for practically only one party a rational decision yet England, far closer, a case a case of folk being gulled?

[Pull My Strings]

Its not the message that I've taken and its not the message that the Labour party will take.

The only point I am making is that the SNP had some kind of effect on English votes and that pretending they had none is dishonest. Its nothing to do with dismissing the failures of the Labour party or dismissing the right of Scottish voters to vote for whoever they want. I just get pissed off when people make overly simplistic and absolutist claims like "even if we'd returned 59 Labour MPs England would have voted exactly the same". Its nonsense. Scotland couldn't have returned 59 Labour MPs without the whole election having been fought differently.

This is just silly circular logic. If everything were different then everything would be different. If Labour had fought a better campaign in Scotland they might have been expected to fight a better campaign in England. If Labour had retained credibility in Scotland it might have supported their credibility in England, etc.

What you seem to be suggesting is that there is a causal link between the success of the SNP and the failure of the Labour party when the relationship is actually the other way around.

[Uncle Psychosis]

Looking at how easily England has been gulled into another five years of Tory rule makes England look more and more like a foreign country we've got less and less in common with.

A bittersweet night - proud of what we've done up here, but well over time to say sayonara to the neighbours who seem incapable of making a rational decision.

That's a pretty unfair generalisation. The Tories only got about 35% of the vote, they just game FPTP perfectly. The Conservative vote only increased by 0.7% compared to last time - it's not like people have flocked to them.

Tens of millions of English people are absolutely gutted this morning. Let's not pretend otherwise.

[John Lambies Doos]

Best possible result for Scottish Independence.

[MassiveFanDan]

Is there not a contradiction there? Why is Scotland voting for practically only one party a rational decision yet England, far closer, a case a case of folk being gulled?

Because the party that Scotland has just voted for has a recent historical record of acting in the interests of the majority of the people who live in Scotland. This record may be patchy, with large dollops of amateurism and silliness mixed in, but it exists.

The party that the people of England have just voted for has no such historical record in relation to the majority of the people who live in England.

[MassiveFanDan]

Tens of millions of English people are absolutely gutted this morning. Let's not pretend otherwise.

I know quite a few that will be devastated, and my heart goes out to them.

Most I only "know" second hand from hanging out on Urban 75 and other forums, but they have my condolences today.

[Hillonearth]

That's a pretty unfair generalisation. The Tories only got about 35% of the vote, they just game FPTP perfectly. The Conservative vote only increased by 0.7% compared to last time - it's not like people have flocked to them.

Tens of millions of English people are absolutely gutted this morning. Let's not pretend otherwise.

Yep, some good mates of mine among them - I was on Facebook with a couple from the North-East and London last night who are devastated. I genuinely feel for the decent English punters who don't have that light at the end of the tunnel that we do by dint of nationality that they might eventually get out.

[FlyerTon]

The Lib Dems sort of pegged the Tories back when in coalition and increased the amount you can earn tax free up to £10,600.

Now they are gone and with the Tories in full control, it's going to be a tough time ahead.

[Pull My Strings]

The Lib Dems sort of pegged the Tories back when in coalition and got things like the amount you can earn increased before paying tax through.

Now they are gone and with the Tories in full control, it's going to be a tough time ahead.

That's certainly the narrative which they spun but I'm not convinced.

The personal allowance has always increased year-on-year (barring exceptional circumstances). All that has been done is that the rate of increase has been hastened slightly. Meanwhile NI remains at 11% and the point at which you start paying NI has not increased in line with the Income Tax personal allowance. VAT remains at 20% and wages in the public and private sector have fallen in real terms. The Lib Dems have had no real impact on moderating the overall programme of austerity and I wouldn't expect them to have played any significant role this time around either.

[Granny Danger]

That's certainly the narrative which they spun but I'm not convinced.

The personal allowance has always increased year-on-year (barring exceptional circumstances). All that has been done is that the rate of increase has been hastened slightly. Meanwhile NI remains at 11% and the point at which you start paying NI has not increased in line with the Income Tax personal allowance. VAT remains at 20% and wages in the public and private sector have fallen in real terms. The Lib Dems have had no real impact on moderating the overall programme of austerity and I wouldn't expect them to have played any significant role this time around either.

Yeah, anyone who thinks that the LibDems have been a moderating force in the last five years needs help.

[RedRob72]

Unbelievable result for the SNP in terms of seats, but sidelined by the Tories performance down south anyway. Bitter Sweet eh?

Just pleased that f*ckin buffoon Milliband and his sidekick Ed Balls, are getting nowhere near Downing Street, not even close !! Top result !!