When will indyref2 happen?

[Dons_1988]

It's funny as f**k

If you say so

[Bairnardo]

I get all that, and I’m not going to exert any effort defending these guys but just don’t think it wins any arguments. Indeed indirectly it fuels the defence of them when there’s “unprovoked” (note the quote marks) attacks on them.

You are right on that score. I wouldnt do it myself. Its lowest common denominator behaviour, the reason why these cases amuse me is that Farage and Tommy indulge in the lowest order behaviour yet try to dress it up, then get upset when they are met in kind.

If you dont like mud, you shouldnt roll around in it with the pigs, because they do like it.

[Dons_1988]

You are right on that score. I wouldnt do it myself. Its lowest common denominator behaviour, the reason why these cases amuse me is that Farage and Tommy indulge in the lowest order behaviour yet try to dress it up, then get upset when they are met in kind.

If you dont like mud, you shouldnt roll around in it with the pigs, because they do like it.

I said this on another thread but particularly I agree with you on tommeh. That guy absolutely loves and actively invites violence so he’s got a nerve getting on his high horse about it.

[John Lambies Doos]

Banners like this (which even Humza Yousaf has had to come out and call despicable), Wings over Scotland, Alex Salmond, Tommy Sheridan and screenings of Braveheart. No wonder the sensible majority didn’t want to blindly jump into independence with this lot and sent them back to think again.

Tick tock Masterminter

[NotThePars]

The first guy that threw his milkshake over Tommy did so after he said he was harassed repeatedly and called something along the lines of a rapist. Don’t really blame him tbph.

 

Also Farage unsubtly hinted at civil war if Brexit didn’t happen so y’know.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Can we have jelly and ice cream when we get independence?

[Hedgecutter]

Your Tory leadership types believe in things like class and birthright. They believe people like us should know our place. To me, that is deserving of being fucking hounded by decent people.

You can absolutely guarantee that many of them will look down their noses at the likes of Mhairi Black MP and feel that their opinion is superior, even though the non-ministerial back benchers have exactly the same job as her. In fact, it probably has them absolutely seething that a young wifie from the working-classes could share such a position. The class system can get in the f***ing sea.   

 

Also Farage unsubtly hinted at civil war if Brexit didn’t happen so y’know.

All that'll happen will be a lot of classic British tutting, whinging and perhaps a 12 man march from Burnley as far as Blackburn from the leavers who'll claim they'll never vote again (as opposed to wide scale rioting that you'd see in France for example). Therefore the whole Brexit saga will have been well worth it if we stay in the EU and have removed these types from the political system. Such a prospect excites me, so bring it on.

[NotThePars]

All that'll happen will be a lot of classic British tutting, whinging and perhaps a 12 man march from Burnley as far as Blackburn from the leavers who'll claim they'll never vote again (as opposed to wide scale rioting that you'd see in France for example). Therefore the whole Brexit saga will have been well worth it if we stay in the EU and have removed these types from the political system. Such a prospect excites me, so bring it on.

No doubt. It was more “chat shit get banged” that I was thinking about.

[sergie's no1 fan]

I disagree about the "Tory scum out" banner.
As a 14/15 year old boy at high school I would walk along whitburn main street at lunch time at my break during the miners strike.
In getting along to the shops,there was a stall outside the main store in the town at the time where anyone could donate a few quid or food to help the miners and their families who worked at Polkemmet Colliery.
I would often give my lunch money and go without that day to help out,one time when donating one of the miners broke down in tears when I told him it was my lunch money I was donating.
When I think back to that time now,I feel nothing but anger to a party and Thatcher that tried to crush people in the way they did,to see proud working men reduced to begging will stay with me forever.
So I'm sorry,scum is what they are and that's being kind to them.
They have no interest in the ordinary man on the street or for Scotland's wellbeing only what the can bleed out of us.
 

All very fair points, but its worth remembering that are some weirdos out there that vote Tory and want Scottish Independence.

[Gaz]

14 hours ago, Bairnardo said:

Your Tory leadership types believe in things like class and birthright. They believe people like us should know our place. To me, that is deserving of being fucking hounded by decent people.

And sadly, there are an insane amount of people in Scotland who want to be kept in their place by those of a better class and birthright.

[Kuro]

14 hours ago, Whitburn Vale said:

I disagree about the "Tory scum out" banner.

As a 14/15 year old boy at high school I would walk along whitburn main street at lunch time at my break during the miners strike.

In getting along to the shops,there was a stall outside the main store in the town at the time where anyone could donate a few quid or food to help the miners and their families who worked at Polkemmet Colliery.

I would often give my lunch money and go without that day to help out,one time when donating one of the miners broke down in tears when I told him it was my lunch money I was donating.

When I think back to that time now,I feel nothing but anger to a party and Thatcher that tried to crush people in the way they did,to see proud working men reduced to begging will stay with me forever.

So I'm sorry,scum is what they are and that's being kind to them.

They have no interest in the ordinary man on the street or for Scotland's wellbeing only what the can bleed out of us.

 

Tories are scum right to their very core, their supporters are scum, their representatives are scum, their backers are scum.  Try engaging a Tory on here about the effects of Tory policies, they will dodge and evade all day long as they don't like to discuss these things because deep down they know but don't want to confront it, and yet still vote for them.

Here's a wee stat for you, during WWII around 68 000 British civilians were killed.  In nine years of Tory government they've already more than doubled that.  Tories are scum, there's no other way to describe them, pure and utter vermin.

Edited July 6, 2019 by Kuro

[git-intae-thum]

25 minutes ago, Kuro said:

Tories are scum right to their very core, their supporters are scum, their representatives are scum, their backers are scum.  Try engaging a Tory on here about the effects of Tory policies, they will dodge and evade all day long as they don't like to discuss these things because deep down they know but don't want to confront it, and yet still vote for them.

Here's a wee stat for you, during WWII around 68 000 British civilians were killed.  In nine years of Tory government they've already more than doubled that.  Tories are scum, there's no other way to describe them, pure and utter vermin.

With regards to Scotland. I would argue Tories are not our worst enemy. They are in the open. They hate us and we hate them.....thats fine. The UK Tory party is a joke in Scotland.

But.. ....

Remember who hid McCrone, allowed Thatcherism despite 50 red mp's and annexed thousands of miles of Scottish sea on the quiet....why?....still not been answered btw

.....also... took a hundred years to finally deliver a Scottish parliament....and when it did so took steps to ensure there could be no majority..no power. (that turned oot well)

The whole time seeing the communities it governed; and pretended to care for...slowly expiring.

......Labour.

All the time pretending to be yer pal.

There is nothing wrong in having centre right political/economic views. It is a reasonable political opinion to argue in a normal country. Most successful nations have a strong centre right focused economic political voice. They are elected and then a few years later a centre left is elected and on the whole.... .society progresses.

Thing is....we do not live in a normal country.

We live in one, whose political elite raped and pillaged a large part of the world right into the first half of the 20th century. We call them "the establishment." They are found in both the Tory and labour party.

In the 2nd half of the 20th century the rest of the world called them out.  

They were finished.... However.....they still retained the mindset.

For the last half century, they have not had access to steal the rest of the world's resource.......... so they turned on stealing from their own country.

That is what has happened to Britain.

[Kuro]

8 minutes ago, git-intae-thum said:

With regards to Scotland. I would argue Tories are not our worst enemy. They are in the open. They hate us and we hate them.....thats fine. The UK Tory party is a joke in Scotland.

But.. ....

Remember who hid McCrone, allowed Thatcherism despite 50 red mp's and annexed thousands of miles of Scottish sea on the quiet....why?....still not been answered btw

.....also... took a hundred years to finally deliver a Scottish parliament....and when it did so took steps to ensure there could be no majority..no power. (that turned oot well)

The whole time seeing the communities it governed; and pretended to care for...slowly expiring.

......Labour.

All the time pretending to be yer pal.

There is nothing wrong in having centre right political/economic views. It is a reasonable political opinion to argue in a normal country. Most successful nations have a strong centre right focused economic political voice. They are elected and then a few years later a centre left is elected and on the whole.... .society progresses.

Thing is....we do not live in a normal country.

We live in one, whose political elite raped and pillaged a large part of the world right into the first half of the 20th century. We call them "the establishment." They are found in both the Tory and labour party.

In the 2nd half of the 20th century the rest of the world called them out.  

They were finished.... However.....they still retained the mindset.

For the last half century, they have not had access to steal the rest of the world's resource.......... so they turned on stealing from their own country.

That is what has happened to Britain.

Good post, though they always did that not just in the last half century.  The UK is simply Greater England, it is the result of England's conquest of the countries that surround it, we are simply English colonies the same as India was a British colony. That was always the intention and the model. 

I agree with the rest, especially about Labour, but was simply making the point that Tories are simply terrible people, the very worst of humanity. The world isn't all rainbows and unicorns, some people are genuinely just really awful human beings, the Tory party is these people organising themselves to fight for their own enrichment, that's all it is.

[Kejan]

Anecdotal, and most scientifically I have not yet polled a funeral (but ended up in a wee chat at a recent wedding about Brexit etc) but there certainly feels like there is a soft, wee push to Yes. Again, I can't quite put my figure on it and it could well reverse back but I feel people who were ultimately against independence or soft Nos are slithering with some even changing.

I know of two recent changes :

First one voted No in 2014 as he's a Socialist/Internationalist (World Citizen etc) better to be in both Unions and if anything, he wanted further World/European integration etc. He was over the moon when JC was elected Labour leader and had high hopes. I met him recently and he says he wishes he could turn back time to vote Yes. He seems to have been Labour up until 2018/recently but has realised Corbyn is a hapless and hopeless bumbling for want of a better word idiot and will never be elected as a PM nor deliver a Socialist Britain. He was never vitriolic against the SNP or Yes and probably the ideal convert for Yes/SNP, but says he voted SNP in the Euros and its the only way for Scotland now he says. I think the EU election result also turned him in to a full on Yes voter ''We're two different countries. Time to go and try our own thing.''

Second one is a mind-blown one. Hated that woman/SNP etc and even voted for Kirstene Heir to help the Tories win the Angus seat. I don't know what has happened, but he now seems to think that independence is the only way out of the mess. I wonder if his MP has helped changed his views, just by her absolute idiocy and he has ferm links so maybe the hard Brexit/immigration points pish getting spouted reguarly in the media  e.g no one is picking the tatties or fruit has swayed him, but I'm honestly stunned at him advocating an independent Scotland. He's not a friend, but a acquaintance and I try and avoid political chat if I meet him as its oddball behaviour to be constantly taking about it a, but he brought it up with me and said he's changed his ''whole mind'' on the issue. Think he's scunnered with the Tories in general and the dross not just in the whole party but the Scottish branch e.g Hair, Thomson, Kerr etc, but worried about a fiscally conservative/socially liberal party to vote for in any independent Scotland, but there are Tories in Scotland and as much as the SNP will split in any potential iSco then the Tories might go in two as well. I thought he might have been a Lib Dem in the last EU election e.g both Unions ; but nah they are hypocrites etc. Honestly, a bit flabbergasted at this change of opinion. If Level 5 is yer staunch Rangers/1690 mob, this guy is/was the liberal Diet Coke version of it and seems to have gone 180 on independence.

So maybe time for Yessers to get polling those Orange Walks and find a couple more Yes voters.

Saying that, I do know of my pal's wife's mum (aye, right you dae...but nae BS) voted Yes/45 avatar at the time etc and yet voted for Brexit and Farage's mob in May!

A lot of blethers in there, but going from my very scientific reporting of this post and last few months of meeting pals at functions or out and about. It's 2 to Yes and 1 to No. And I definitely feel a softening/openness to a potential Yes vote, much more and even if its people softening but ultimately still a soft No (for now) there is no where near as much vitriol against it or the SNP - from my experiences. I suppose it helps having a half-competent government in Scotland up against yer clown over a minefield mob down at Westminister and the state of the opposition parties in Holyrood (The Greens aside) who are all utter diddies. Christ, Willie Rennie is still a THING!

I think there's quite a few folk out there who are probably soft Unionists who were never that bothered about flegs/nationality  but felt it prudent to stay in both Unions are now seeing the shift in England, Boris Johnson coming in and holding up their hands and thinking "Ah f**k it,  it surely won't be any worse than the state of the UK. Let's get out of here." Then again, turning them in to Yessers after all the  'uncertainty' of the past few years/referendums etc is another matter.

Aye, and no doubt next week will have a poll having No 58 and blowing my ramblings in to the water! But certainly feel a Yes vote in any second referendum is achievable and could be returned as soon as is clear about Brexit. Only problem is are we heading for a Spain/Catalonia situation? It looks like that ; or will Brexit even happen? Johnson rambling on about leaving on Halloween etc but anyhoos, not long to go and see what will happen in the next few months.

 

 

[Bairnardo]

Is there any info regarding deaths/youngsters reaching voting age since 2014 and how that could swing it given that the younger population seem much more Yes minded than the older

[John Lambies Doos]

Is there any info regarding deaths/youngsters reaching voting age since 2014 and how that could swing it given that the younger population seem much more Yes minded than the older

Plus EU citizens who will clearly change..
I guess only way to see by age is demographics of recent polls. Ie you should see slight increase across all age groups.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

The biggest enemy of independence is not the Tories but the Labour branch office.

At least the Tories are honest when it comes to Scotland - SLab are just duplicitous b*****ds.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anecdotal, and most scientifically I have not yet polled a funeral (but ended up in a wee chat at a recent wedding about Brexit etc) but there certainly feels like there is a soft, wee push to Yes. Again, I can't quite put my figure on it and it could well reverse back but I feel people who were ultimately against independence or soft Nos are slithering with some even changing. I know of two recent changes : First one voted No in 2014 as he's a Socialist/Internationalist (World Citizen etc) better to be in both Unions and if anything, he wanted further World/European integration etc. He was over the moon when JC was elected Labour leader and had high hopes. I met him recently and he says he wishes he could turn back time to vote Yes. He seems to have been Labour up until 2018/recently but has realised Corbyn is a hapless and hopeless bumbling for want of a better word idiot and will never be elected as a PM nor deliver a Socialist Britain. He was never vitriolic against the SNP or Yes and probably the ideal convert for Yes/SNP, but says he voted SNP in the Euros and its the only way for Scotland now he says. I think the EU election result also turned him in to a full on Yes voter ''We're two different countries. Time to go and try our own thing.'' 

 

 

 

 

That probably describes me - except I abstained during the IndyRef. There are a lot like me who politically are internationalist in outlook, pro-European, who with the EU referendum and the subsequent shift to the right see independence as being the only show in town now.

 

 

 

I think there's quite a few folk out there who are probably soft Unionists who were never that bothered about flegs/nationality  but felt it prudent to stay in both Unions are now seeing the shift in England, Boris Johnson coming in and holding up their hands and thinking "Ah f**k it,  it surely won't be any worse than the state of the UK. Let's get out of here." Then again, turning them in to Yessers after all the  'uncertainty' of the past few years/referendums etc is another matter.

  

There will be many who voted No who would not be political unionists but economic unionists - the whole Brexit scenario has turned that on its head. I agree that it's this group who must be targeted - persuade them that UK is going to be an economic basket case under these lunatics and that independence is the only way to avoid it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[John Lambies Doos]

 
 
 
 
 
 

  There will be many who voted No who would not be political unionists but economic unionists - the whole Brexit scenario has turned that on its head. I agree that it's this group who must be targeted - persuade them that UK is going to be an economic basket case under these lunatics and that independence is the only way to avoid it.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Control the media we win indy ref 2. We don't control the media

[Highlandmagyar 2nd Tier]

2 hours ago, John Lambies Doos said:

3 hours ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

 
 
 
 
 
 

  There will be many who voted No who would not be political unionists but economic unionists - the whole Brexit scenario has turned that on its head. I agree that it's this group who must be targeted - persuade them that UK is going to be an economic basket case under these lunatics and that independence is the only way to avoid it.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Control the media we win indy ref 2. We don't control the media

I dont think the media need to be controlled anymore up here. I think Scotland has seen through them for the right wing lying b*****ds that they are.