When will indyref2 happen?

[topcat(The most tip top)]

 
It is a significant change that people were aware was a possibility in 2014 yet they still chose to vote for No at the time and vote as a block group going forward. 
The basic counter point to that is  - "the Toaries said wed stay in Europe" -
I'm yet to find one poster that voted No  to secure Scotlands place at the EU,

We clearly move in different circles

I’ve met loads of them, many of them are my family

But then again I’m in Edinburgh which was a weak “no” and a strong “remain” city

While the Union Jack waving staunch west coast Bampot might be the poster boy of Scottish unionism the no voters I encountered were largely driven by a fear of the unknown and a reluctance to take a big risk as opposed to driven by a patriotic love of the UK

For these people Ruth Davidson’s assertion that only remaining in the UK would ensure Scotland remaining in the EU was clearly a big deal and they said as much

[SandyCromarty]

13 hours ago, Baxter Parp said:

economic criteria: a functioning market economy and the capacity to cope with competition and market forces;" "Independently" doesn't appear anywhere in the criteria. You seem determined to "make stuff up" for some

There is no requirement to be financially independent. Stop being dishonest.

Now I'm a liar, Dearie Me?

Consider that the Pound Sterling is controlled by a non EU state then it follows that Scotland could not enter the EU with that currency and would have to create it's own Central Bank as defined in the following;

From The Treaty of the Union

Chapter 1 Economic Policy

bArticle 131

(ex Article 109 TEC)

Each Member State shall ensure that its national legislation including the statutes of its national central bank is compatible with the Treaties and the Statute of the ESCB and of the ECB.   

From that it is clear that the Bank of England controlled by a non EU member could never be compatible with the Treaties and Statutes and Scotland would have to create it's own Central bank.

And to finish here is part of an article from The LSE dated 5th Feb 2020;

Scotland’s journey to EU membership would be deeply linked with the construction of the Scottish state. In the post-referendum transition and formative years of independence, it would establish government departments (such as a department for European and external affairs) and state architecture such as a comprehensive system of taxation, a central bank and a competition agency.Scotland’s journey to EU membership would be deeply linked with the construction of the Scottish state. In the post-referendum transition and formative years of independence, it would establish government departments (such as a department for European and external affairs) and state architecture such as a comprehensive system of taxation, a central bank and a competition agency.

[SandyCromarty]

13 hours ago, Erih Shtrep said:

https://www.aforceforgood.uk/single-post/moral-and-democratic-case?fbclid=IwAR1ePK-7u6WRRCY7iK8kpggW7EfKzWkFh_EDmv5a4b4cZ2Psb8rLjAxZTQ4

Always nice to get the holocaust deniers views on things constitutional.   

By his meaningless pish the SNP had a mandate in 2015 but not now.  

 

That's the clown who stands on the pavement with his ten or so pals and hurls pathetic abuse at us, children included, as we pass on the AUOB Independence marches.

Where are the rest of the unionists to back him up on these days as we pass in our thousands.

Embarrassed maybe????

 

[jakedee]

 
It is a significant change that people were aware was a possibility in 2014 yet they still chose to vote for No at the time and vote as a block group going forward. 
The basic counter point to that is  - "the Toaries said wed stay in Europe" -
I'm yet to find one poster that voted No  to secure Scotlands place at the EU, it's funnily enough again only people that want referendums til they get the answer they want that say people were duped over Brexit, they all managed to avoid being duped right enough just not this mythical significant portion of people that swayed the vote.. [emoji854]
Also anecdotally speaking everyone I know IRL that voted Remain, pretty much everyone I know, would also vote No to Scottish Independence, the idea that these two are interchangeable is again only used by people that have always voted Yes. There's no significant demand from No voters that think this is material change enough, if there was then this ide would have a lot more credibility considering if you truly wanted Scottish Independence you weren't exactly going to give up in 2014 or just wait a generation, you were always going to agitate for a second referendum, Brexit was the bus that came along to keep your journey alive even if it is being disingenuous, I understand why people do it though, it would be fairly depressing for them to have just accepted the 2014 result forever.

Clearly have never met an EU resident in Scotland

[SANTAN]

21 minutes ago, Aufc said:

 

Was brexit a thing around the scottish independence debate? I dont think it was.

I actually voted no last time but now feel we can do better than just living in Westminster’s shadow. I agree there will be a difficult period but no reason why we cant thrive.

Everyone i know voted remain (none of my friends are thick c***s) and the majority of them voted yes. Everyone will have same anecdotal evidence based on how they vote.

I dont think anyone is saying they are interchangeable but the simple fact is that Scotland voted to remain part of the EU but were taken out because they were part of the UK.
 

 

Just because you weren't thinking about it doesn't mean you should assume the same of everyone else. It was a huge conversation at the time, UKIP had swept up at the EU elections the previous year and the discussion was constantly over who would offer a referendum.

You say the simple fact but it's not quite so, I could say the simple fact is the UK voted to leave. Scotland is in the UK. 

[SANTAN]

28 minutes ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

 

We clearly move in different circles

I’ve met loads of them, many of them are my family

But then again I’m in Edinburgh which was a weak “no” and a strong “remain” city

While the Union Jack waving staunch west coast Bampot might be the poster boy of Scottish unionism the no voters I encountered were largely driven by a fear of the unknown and a reluctance to take a big risk as opposed to driven by a patriotic love of the UK

For these people Ruth Davidson’s assertion that only remaining in the UK would ensure Scotland remaining in the EU was clearly a big deal and they said as much

 

So these people you know. 

Did they base their vote on Scottish Independence on remaining in the EU to the point they would now vote Yes, if that's the case fair play to them I just don't see that as being a significant portion of people and the bad faith part of the discussion comes in when people that voted Yes all along like to speak on behalf of No voters. 

I'm Scottish Borders so perhaps a tad less fussed on the EU considering there's more farmers and less tourists. Most people I know that voted to Remain in the UK didn't do so because of a hard on for the UK it was more they didnt have a hard on for the proposed fantasy Indy they were told about.

I've said  before the idea people would want to change the status quo for something is a big ask in the first place so the side asking for change needs to make a very compelling argument which I don't think they have for enough people yet. 

Edited February 14, 2021 by Stormzy

[SANTAN]

7 minutes ago, jakedee said:

46 minutes ago, Stormzy said:

 
It is a significant change that people were aware was a possibility in 2014 yet they still chose to vote for No at the time and vote as a block group going forward. 
The basic counter point to that is  - "the Toaries said wed stay in Europe" -
I'm yet to find one poster that voted No  to secure Scotlands place at the EU, it's funnily enough again only people that want referendums til they get the answer they want that say people were duped over Brexit, they all managed to avoid being duped right enough just not this mythical significant portion of people that swayed the vote..
Also anecdotally speaking everyone I know IRL that voted Remain, pretty much everyone I know, would also vote No to Scottish Independence, the idea that these two are interchangeable is again only used by people that have always voted Yes. There's no significant demand from No voters that think this is material change enough, if there was then this ide would have a lot more credibility considering if you truly wanted Scottish Independence you weren't exactly going to give up in 2014 or just wait a generation, you were always going to agitate for a second referendum, Brexit was the bus that came along to keep your journey alive even if it is being disingenuous, I understand why people do it though, it would be fairly depressing for them to have just accepted the 2014 result forever.

Clearly have never met an EU resident in Scotland

I've met plenty but tbh I wasn't in conversation with any EU residents at the time of the referendum. 

I don't quite get what point you're going for here? 

[topcat(The most tip top)]

Now I'm a liar, Dearie Me?
Consider that the Pound Sterling is controlled by a non EU state then it follows that Scotland could not enter the EU with that currency and would have to create it's own Central Bank as defined in the following;

From The Treaty of the Union

Chapter 1 Economic Policy

bArticle 131

(ex Article 109 TEC)

Each Member State shall ensure that its national legislation including the statutes of its national central bank is compatible with the Treaties and the Statute of the ESCB and of the ECB.   

From that it is clear that the Bank of England controlled by a non EU member could never be compatible with the Treaties and Statutes and Scotland would have to create it's own Central bank.

Okay now we’re getting somewhere

If we accept, at least for the time being, your supposition that actual membership requires a Scottish central bank and that this in turn could only operate with a separate currency


We’re still a some distance from the idea that we’d need to have this in place before even applying in the first place which is what seemed remarkable about your earlier post

The question of a Scottish Currency on gaining Independence has been covered on here many times.
So here we go again.
On gaining Independence a priority for the Scottish Government will be applying for EU membership, under EU rules one clear stipulation is that we cannot apply if we are tied to a currency of a non EU member, so with that requirement we cannot be tied to the english pound and instead we will create a temporary currency until we gain membership and the Euro.
The Scottish Dollar?????

An sympathetic reader might say that you’ve taken a valid point and greatly exaggerated it’s significance

An unsympathetic reader wouldn’t even have give you the benefit of the doubt on your initial assumptions

Of course maybe the fault is mine and I have misinterpreted your original post and that’s not what you meant but if so you can, surely, understand my confusion.

[SandyCromarty]

I have said all along that any applicant to the EU must have it's own currency which as seen in the Eu Treaty of the Union clearly defines a member state as having it's own Central Bank.

Now there may be some suggestion on here that a new Scottish Central Bank could still have the BOE Pound Sterling as it's currency which is obviously nonsense to have a non EU currency.

From my point of view any new Scottish currency would be propaganda ammo for the unionists and the likes of Gordon Goebbels would be trotted out to strike fear into Scots with scare stories around pensions and savings.

To soften the change to a new currency I feel it would be better to have it named the Scottish Pound, the Irish did similar with the Irish Pound (Punt) until they changed over to the Euro in 1999. 

[Aufc]

Just because you weren't thinking about it doesn't mean you should assume the same of everyone else. It was a huge conversation at the time, UKIP had swept up at the EU elections the previous year and the discussion was constantly over who would offer a referendum.
You say the simple fact but it's not quite so, I could say the simple fact is the UK voted to leave. Scotland is in the UK. 

We could go round in circles here. I respect you want to vote no so can see how it pans out

[DeeTillEhDeh]

So these people you know. 
Did they base their vote on Scottish Independence on remaining in the EU to the point they would now vote Yes, if that's the case fair play to them I just don't see that as being a significant portion of people and the bad faith part of the discussion comes in when people that voted Yes all along like to speak on behalf of No voters. 
I'm Scottish Borders so perhaps a tad less fussed on the EU considering there's more farmers and less tourists. Most people I know that voted to Remain in the UK didn't do so because of a hard on for the UK it was more they didnt have a hard on for the proposed fantasy Indy they were told about.
I've said  before the idea people would want to change the status quo for something is a big ask in the first place so the side asking for change needs to make a very compelling argument which I don't think they have for enough people yet. 

In one way I will agree with you - the White Paper last time round was a fantasy wishlist that just did not stand up to scrutiny.

I suspect that any IndyRef2 will not make the same mistake. Yes there would be tough choices in an iScotland but that those choices would be made in Scotland and not in Westminster. Fundamentally for me it is about democracy and the decentralisation of power from Westminster.

I was a strong supporter of federalism - but that ship has sailed - and the biggest underminers of it were not the Tories but the Labour Party.

[jakedee]

I've met plenty but tbh I wasn't in conversation with any EU residents at the time of the referendum. 
I don't quite get what point you're going for here? 

Well the next time you meet them, ask them which way they voted in 2014, and why.
Then ask them which way they'll vote in a future referendum, and why.

[SANTAN]

10 minutes ago, jakedee said:

Well the next time you meet them, ask them which way they voted in 2014, and why.
Then ask them which way they'll vote in a future referendum, and why.

I can't imagine their opinions would have changed either way but sure I can ask them on your behalf..

[lennyzer0]

3 hours ago, Stormzy said:

I'm yet to find one poster that voted No  to secure Scotlands place at the EU

It was certainly part of my thinking in voting No last time round. Not the only reason, by a long shot (a residual - and now discarded -  belief that Scotland shouldn't leave the English working classes to perpetual Tory rule played at least as large a part), but it defintely played a role in my vote that staying in the EU was more likely in the UK than out.

3 hours ago, Stormzy said:

Also anecdotally speaking everyone I know IRL that voted Remain, pretty much everyone I know, would also vote No to Scottish Independence

I also know - literally - dozens of people who voted Remain who will vote Yes in any indyref2, both previous No and Yes voters. With the exception of my wife's very elderly mum (who voted Remain because all her grandchildren asked her to), in fact, I can't think of a single Remain voter I know who will not also vote Yes. Wholly anecdotal, of course, and you could certainly pick A N Other Poster and find he says the exact opposite, but the idea that it's a preposterous mapping is plainly not true,

 

 

[jakedee]

I can't imagine their opinions would have changed either way but sure I can ask them on your behalf..

Then you imagine wrongly. I'm sure they'll tell you when you ask.
No need to ask on my behalf thanks, the ones I know have already informed me of their voting intentions.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

So these people you know. 
Did they base their vote on Scottish Independence on remaining in the EU to the point they would now vote Yes

They’re all unique individuals but my impression is that they generally have either switched from no to yes or at least softened to “maybe”

My youngest sister quit the Labour Party because of Brexit. I can’t say for sure whether she’d still be a “No” voter herself but even if she would I’m pretty certain she wouldn’t bother trying to persuade others this time round

My other sister has started a family with an EU Citizen since Indyref1 and that’s definitely a “Yes” household now

[SANTAN]

22 minutes ago, jakedee said:

Then you imagine wrongly. I'm sure they'll tell you when you ask.
No need to ask on my behalf thanks, the ones I know have already informed me of their voting intentions.

How do you know? Are you trying to be enigmatic or something here, save us both some time and post what you're implying. 

[topcat(The most tip top)]

I'm Scottish Borders so perhaps a tad less fussed on the EU considering there's more farmers and less tourists.

it’s not about EU citizens as tourists as much as EU Citizens as friends, neighbours, colleagues and, as it turns out, father of my very cute bilingual niece.

[SANTAN]

1 minute ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

it’s not about EU citizens as tourists as much as EU Citizens as friends, neighbours, colleagues and, as it turns out, father of my very cute bilingual niece.
 

I think you misunderstood the point I was making if this is where you want to go.. 

[topcat(The most tip top)]

I think you misunderstood the point I was making if this is where you want to go.. 

I thought the point was that people in different parts of the country and different social circles will have a different insight into the general mood of the nation.

Ideally this forum should allow us to look beyond those blinkers

You can provide an insight into what the man on Hawick high street is thinking and I can let you understand the metropolitan elite better

Otherwise we fall into the easy mistake of assuming everywhere else is basically like our corner of the country.