When will indyref2 happen?

[The_Kincardine]

1 hour ago, DublinMagyar said:

5 hours ago, Kenneth840 said:

Why have we got it into our head that a referendum is necessary to secure Scottish Independence?
We have elected Pro Independence parties to our Scottish government, that is enough, declare our Independence. 
Declare Independence.  There is no time to wait.  The demographics can't change when 50000 English people per year are residing in Scotland and calling it home and have no interest in Independence.  The top jobs in Scotland are advertised in the London press. 
Why is the SNP asking for a referendum and requesting a S30 when it is not needed? 
Let us imagine this.
A referendum held and SNP win = SNP government control Scotland. 
A referendum held and SNP lose = SNP still govern Scotland. 
Or we could go the way other countries do and declare Independence, on a mandate, with a plebiscite election, especially now that we have pro Independence parties in power at Holyrood, declare Independence.  Or hold a plebiscite general election but if the SNP lose they will be out of power. 
Fearty cats. 
 

This shite is why we get Kincy and co.

You get ' Kincy and co.' because partitioning our unitary nation-state along ethno-national lines is a vile idea supported by a thicket of Anglophobic boors.  Still, credit to two-post Kenny for saying what the rest of you are thinking.

[BFTD]

1 hour ago, DublinMagyar said:

This shite is why we get Kincy and co.

I think it's pretty safe to say that it's written by Kincy and co.

[Benjamin_Nevis]

29 minutes ago, BFTD said:

I think it's pretty safe to say that it's written by Kincy and co.

Indeed. 

[KingRocketman II]

9 hours ago, The_Kincardine said:

You get ' Kincy and co.' because partitioning our unitary nation-state along ethno-national lines is a vile idea supported by a thicket of Anglophobic boors.  Still, credit to two-post Kenny for saying what the rest of you are thinking.

 wise, brave words from the board's very own King of Projection. We don't get the hero we want, but the hero we need. 

[KingRocketman II]

5 hours ago, Dolf said:

Who are these Anglophobic boors?

 

anyone who thinks Scotland will be better served by self determination, hates the English. There is no other reasonable explanation - therefore all SNP and Green voters are anglophobic boors. All those voting for the likes of Tory, UKIP, All for Unity, Fathers for Foreigners Out etc  are the good guys. 

[SANTAN]

17 hours ago, Kenneth840 said:

Why have we got it into our head that a referendum is necessary to secure Scottish Independence?

We have elected Pro Independence parties to our Scottish government, that is enough, declare our Independence. 

Declare Independence.  There is no time to wait.  The demographics can't change when 50000 English people per year are residing in Scotland and calling it home and have no interest in Independence.  The top jobs in Scotland are advertised in the London press. 

Why is the SNP asking for a referendum and requesting a S30 when it is not needed? 

Let us imagine this.

A referendum held and SNP win = SNP government control Scotland. 

A referendum held and SNP lose = SNP still govern Scotland. 

Or we could go the way other countries do and declare Independence, on a mandate, with a plebiscite election, especially now that we have pro Independence parties in power at Holyrood, declare Independence.  Or hold a plebiscite general election but if the SNP lose they will be out of power. 

Fearty cats. 

 

You'd get chased off the streets back into the highlands, that's why. 

[Ric]

If anyone questions the need for a second independence vote then they are also questioning democracy, the manifesto people voted for contained that stipulation. We also know that the party offering that mandate was restricted from getting more seats due to an electoral system that was specifically designed to do so.

However, if any further motivation was needed for those supporting indyref2 you only need to look at the words of Guto Harri, an ex adviser to Johnson. He epitomises the views of middle England conservatism, when he was discussing the lunatic project of a bridge connecting NI and Scotland.

 

Quote

 

Guto Harri said that, with bigger priorities such as the National Health Service and social care reform, it is more likely, on balance, that the tunnel will not be built.

"But it is far from impossible," he added.

"The reality with Boris Johnson is that he could be prime minister for a long period of time.

"He could be out by Christmas, but if he is to be there for the best part of a decade, then this is an idea I think he would come back to. Then I think it more likely than not that this would get done."

 

When he mentions could be out by Christmas, he isn't meaning at the ballot box, he isn't meaning the Conservatives will lose their majority, because there is a limit on when elections need to be called (*) and with it being very much "high tide" for the tories, especially in the classic Labour heartlands, he isn't going to call an election before that time limit. He would be taken out by his own party, which going by the tories' history is very much on brand.

With that in mind, the rest of the comment is very clear in it's context. Conservatives do not think they are capable of losing to the opposition that there is in Westminster, and on that I have a certain amount of agreement, and they see themselves retaining power for another decade (or two electoral cycles).

Are we ready for another decade of Conservative rule, rule that quite clearly does not hold Scottish issues in the same regard as they do others. We've had 14 odd years of it so far, with Brexit and Osbourne's austerity the huge red flags from that time period. Who knows what lunacy will come from them next?

That's democracy people will cry, if more people vote Conservative then they should be the ones in power, following the manifesto they were put into power to undertake. Which, not unsurprisingly brings us back to the opening sentence of this post.

 

(*) a caveat for this is that the tories are planning on removing the time limit, it was put into a bill but has not been passed by the house. If they are willing to do this, then it suggests one of two things, either they feel secure that they will be able to retain support no matter the time of the next election, or they are concerned they will drop back and might want to call a snap election to cover that off. It remains to be seen if, (a) they actually pass the bill, and (b) for what actual reason.

[TheScarf]

You can't just declare independence for fuck sake. 

I can't believe I've had to just type that.

[Ric]

On 21/08/2021 at 06:36, BigDoddyKane said:

I wouldnt be surprised if the Tories say yes to indy 2 but delay it beyond the 5 years till later after Boris is gone. How long does this term of uk government have left? I dont think Boris plans to do a 2nd term he will jump ship and leave the mess to someone else to sort out. 

Because Westminster holds the power of Section 30, they will certainly gerrymander it to suit their needs. Where the Brexit vote was a simple majority I can guarantee you indyRef will require a certain majority (say 5%, while Brexit was under 2%). Now in general I'm not against needing a certain majority on very divisive policies but it would simply be double standards to allow Westminster to remove Scots from the EU against their will, while demanding a more stringent test for the people of Scotland to make a decision about Scotland. It's likely that a certain level of turnout be required, again I am not against that, although again Brexit had no turnout requirements. If Westminster puts, say, a 60% turn out as the threshold, then the unionists simply need to boycott the vote, the turn out while overwhelmingly being in support for independence wouldn't pass 60%. Think that's just cynical talk? It happened in the late 70's and the failed devolution vote under Thatcher. It's also likely that Westminster demands that no 16/17yos will vote, as that is clearly fertile ground for independence, and it's also pretty likely that they will in some way block those who are EU nationals voting.

Gove even touted two referenda, one to determine the framework and a second to confirm if the Scots want that. That is a very interesting comment and there is a lot of reasons why Gove would be keen for this, almost too many to mention. More bites of the cherry, more opportunity to spread FUD, no guarantee a second referendum would happen after the first (Gove was somewhat guarded to say the least about that).

As it is, the tories are happy with the situation, they are under no threat at Westminster (from any party) and can sit back and say "no, no, no, no..." knowing the only thing that it'll change is the fortunes of the Conservatives North of the border, and seeing as they add very few MPs and, barring a few exceptions, their MSPs are elected via the List system showing they have little support up here and in turn bring nothing to the party down South.

 

 

[sergie's no1 fan]

On 22/08/2021 at 02:52, Dolf said:

Who are these Anglophobic boors?

 

The folk that won't cheer on England at football. 

[Antlion]

6 hours ago, Ric said:

 

As it is, the tories are happy with the situation, they are under no threat at Westminster (from any party) and can sit back and say "no, no, no, no..." knowing the only thing that it'll change is the fortunes of the Conservatives North of the border, and seeing as they add very few MPs and, barring a few exceptions, their MSPs are elected via the List system showing they have little support up here and in turn bring nothing to the party down South.

 

 

A scathing pronouncement on David Mundell’s tea-making and ashtray-emptying abilities.

[SANTAN]

Amazed this thread is still on the go. Pretty much like the Bralt now. 

[Ric]

Just now, SANTAN said:

Amazed this thread is still on the go. Pretty much like the Bralt now. 

You mean it's amazing you just come in here to red dot, while others actually discuss the topic in detail.

Got anything to add to my comments? No, of course not, just petulant dotting. Oh, and if you've not run out, remember to red dot this comment too, it's what you do. It's all you do.

 

 

[SANTAN]

2 minutes ago, Ric said:

You mean it's amazing you just come in here to red dot, while others actually discuss the topic in detail.

Got anything to add to my comments? No, of course not, just petulant dotting. Oh, and if you've not run out, remember to red dot this comment too, it's what you do. It's all you do.

 

 

I've posted plenty on the subject, more so when the topic was at the forefront of our politics.

 You could do with posting less though.

Your posts are extremely boring, you add nothing new or of note to the debate, you clearly like the sound of your own voice and therefore write paragraph after paragraph of content that people probably don't even read because it's just not that good, you could try and be more concise because at present your posts are enough to make someone eyes bleed, it is admittedly a bit funny your lack of self awareness though because you clearly think your posts are worth taking your time to make, they're really not. You'd see a better level of debate or comprehension from school children, probably less tantrums too!

I'll stop dotting your shit posts when you stop making them, that sound fair? 

[Ric]

Just now, SANTAN said:

I've posted plenty on the subject, more so when the topic was at the forefront of our politics.

 You could do with posting less though.

Your posts are extremely boring, you add nothing new or of note to the debate, you clearly like the sound of your own voice and therefore write paragraph after paragraph of content that people probably don't even read because it's just not that good, you could try and be more concise because at present your posts are enough to make someone eyes bleed, it is admittedly a bit funny your lack of self awareness though because you clearly think your posts are worth taking your time to make, they're really not. You'd see a better level of debate or comprehension from school children, probably less tantrums too!

I'll stop dotting your shit posts when you stop making them, that sound fair? 

What a child.

 

[SANTAN]

15 minutes ago, Ric said:

You mean it's amazing you just come in here to red dot, while others actually discuss the topic in detail.

Got anything to add to my comments? No, of course not, just petulant dotting. Oh, and if you've not run out, remember to red dot this comment too, it's what you do. It's all you do.

 

 

8.57 am. Just to clarify that's over 30 red dots in the space of 2 mins after being told his posts are shite after previously having an aneurysm at me dotting one of his posts. I actually feel a bit bad for the auld man. 

Edited August 24, 2021 by SANTAN

[Ric]

You realise why I did that?  You red dot lots of people, yet get all pissy when people ask why. Have someone do the exact same to you, and within seconds you are whining about it.

Brilliant, well done for falling into a very obviously signposted trap.

You are literally the easiest person on here to run circles around.

 

[SANTAN]

7 minutes ago, Ric said:

You realise why I did that?  You red dot lots of people, yet get all pissy when people ask why. Have someone do the exact same to you, and within seconds you are whining about it.

Brilliant, well done for falling into a very obviously signposted trap.

You are literally the easiest person on here to run circles around.

 

Psychopath Ric you've absolutely shat the bed there so you have.

[Ric]

8 minutes ago, SANTAN said:

Psychopath Ric you've absolutely shat the bed there so you have.

Your opinion of what went on here is irrelevant. All people will see is a serial red dotter, whine like a child within seconds of someone doing the very same thing to you. If anyone has shat the bed, as you claim, I think you'll find it's not me my overly riled young chap. Literally seconds and you are on here posting a screenshot, so easy to predict, and to be fair you played your part to a tee. Not that you realised you were too busy being outraged.

Well, I've had my fun now, it's genuinely been quite the hoot it has to be said. I wonder if I can train you to do other tricks. I'll maybe work on that.

(edit: of course what do you do? To prove that you are not riled in any way, you red dot this post, just minutes after complaining someone else red dotted you. Your self awareness is very very low it seems)

However, that can keep, this thread is about the upcoming independence referendum.

 

Edited August 24, 2021 by Ric

[SANTAN]

Just now, Ric said:

You're opinion of what went on here is irrelevant. All people will see is a serial red dotter, whine like a child within seconds of someone doing the very same thing to you. If anyone has shat the bed, as you claim, I think you'll find it's not me my overly riled young chap. Literally seconds and you are on here posting a screenshot, so easy to predict, and to be fair you played your part to a tee. Not that you realised you were too busy being outraged.

Well, I've had my fun now, it's genuinely been quite the hoot it has to be said. I wonder if I can train you to do other tricks. I'll maybe work on that.

 

However, that can keep, this thread is about the upcoming independence referendum.

 

That's some heavy cope you're on at the moment. Try and be more concise in future though.