Baxter Parp Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, virginton said: The sole priority of the SNP is to secure Scotland's opposition to Brexit by securing a viable exit lane from the Gammonland fantasies prevailing in the rest of the UK. And on this key point, it has sacrificed all tactical options in exchange for a completely useless, cuddly toy image and some moral grandstanding to come. The first priority is to keep Scotland in the EU and failing that to hold a referendum on Scottish independence. That is the mandate. Any alternative, such as manning the barricades and declaring UDI is a fantasy. How could we facilitate Brexit then demand a referendum because of it? 14 minutes ago, virginton said: As opposed to having no referendum at all and being out of the EU, which is now the racing certainty outcome for Scotland in 2020. A superbly executed political strategy then! Have you not noticed that there is a transition period to come yet? It's all to play for until that ends. 14 minutes ago, virginton said: Making mutually beneficial deals with your enemies is how grown-up politics works. You do not get independence by only playing with the powers that you like and had the SNP leadership grasped this then it wouldn't be finding itself in this mess. Making beneficial deals with your enemies is how Scottish Labour has become a spent political voice unable to win a vote since 2007. That's no way to obtain a referendum let alone win one. Furthermore what kind of vision for the future of Scotland is more of the same? Edited November 13, 2019 by Baxter Parp 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 9 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said: The first priority is to keep Scotland in the EU and failing that to hold a referendum on Scottish independence. That is the mandate. Any alternative, such as manning the barricades and declaring UDI is a fantasy. How could we facilitate Brexit then demand a referendum because of it? Have you not noticed that there is a transition period to come yet? It's all to play for until that ends. Making beneficial deals with your enemies is how Scottish Labour has become a spent political voice unable to win a vote since 2007. That's no way to obtain a referendum let alone win one. Furthermore what kind of vision for the future of Scotland is more of the same? Manning the barricades and declaring UDI might well be a fantasy. What’s your proposed strategy if we are prevented by Westminster from holding another Referendum? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 1 minute ago, Granny Danger said: Manning the barricades and declaring UDI might well be a fantasy. What’s your proposed strategy if we are prevented by Westminster from holding another Referendum? Recourse to the courts. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Granny Danger said: I remember the very positive British wide support there was for Sturgeon after the Brexit TV debates. Indeed. I have said before that, around 2016, she was positively magisterial and came across much better than any other party leader. Unfortunately she has pished away her goodwill and is now a single-issue harpy who is little more than a joke figure. Had she done the decent thing for Scotland and come to some sort of compromise/tripartite agreement wherein she supported the odious Tory leavers in exchange for a seamless EU integration for Scotland (though I recognise that this could well have been a hard sell) then she's be a national heroine. She didn't, though. She reverted to type and has constantly ranted on about The Tories, The English and That Westminster. Wasted opportunity. Edited November 13, 2019 by The_Kincardine 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 Just now, Baxter Parp said: Recourse to the courts. I really don’t see that working. If it were possible it would have been part of the public discourse in Scotland well before now. If anything its a ruse used to avoid answering a difficult question, a question that supporters of Independence simply do not want to face. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 10 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said: The first priority is to keep Scotland in the EU and failing that to hold a referendum on Scottish independence. That is the mandate. The current strategy is failing to achieve either. Quote Any alternative, such as manning the barricades and declaring UDI is a fantasy. It's just as well that the only person currently peddling nonsense like declaring UDi is yourself then, so that's a straw man argument. Quote How could we facilitate Brexit then demand a referendum because of it? Because the sovereign decisions of the Scottish people and the rest of the UK must be treated as fundamentally different political entities, this is the entire fucking point of self-determination in action. Quote Have you not noticed that there is a transition period to come yet? It's all to play for until that ends. Erm yes, that transition period with 350 full gammon Tory MPs braying their support for whatever shitshow Johnson agrees to is really going to be a real nail-biter! Quote Making beneficial deals with your enemies is how Scottish Labour has become a spent political voice unable to win a vote since 2007. Well no, Scottish Labour didn't do any sort of deal with the Conservatives before 2007 - they were emptied from power because they were useless in government and unable to address the constitutional question. Quote That's no way to obtain a referendum let alone win one. Furthermore what kind of vision for the future of Scotland is more of the same? Those are just words without a coherent point attached to them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 Just now, Granny Danger said: I don't like this answer so I'm going to dismiss it. Not my fault if you aren't paying attention. https://inews.co.uk/news/scotland/scottish-independence-snp-mulls-legal-challenge-814604 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 It's of course much easier to state this with the benefit of hindsight, but the precise moment for the SNP to take the exit route from Fail City is now obvious. It was when the Mumbleclown and Swinson were mutually bickering over who should lead a unity government, in the event of a VONC bringing down Johnson. The SNP should have slapped down an ultimatum that the gormless Remain Alliance got its act together and formed a caretaker administration under fucking anyone to put in place a confirmatory referendum on Brexit, UK-wide. If the clowns south of the border could not agree to that then the SNP should have thrown their hands in the air and played the deal with referendum card instead. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 9 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said: Not my fault if you aren't paying attention. https://inews.co.uk/news/scotland/scottish-independence-snp-mulls-legal-challenge-814604 I said it would be part of public discourse well before now. It hadn’t been. It will fail; unfortunately. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 1 minute ago, virginton said: The current strategy is failing to achieve either. The mandate hasn't been met yet. 1 minute ago, virginton said: It's just as well that the only person currently peddling nonsense like declaring UDi is yourself then, so that's a straw man argument. It's an example of an alternative and has been suggested by certain twitter loons. 2 minutes ago, virginton said: Because the sovereign decisions of the Scottish people and the rest of the UK must be treated as fundamentally different political entities, this is the entire fucking point of self-determination in action. If you want to be a fucking hypocrite that wants to emulate the dishonesty and deceit of the Labour Party, LibDems and Tories, please don't let me or the SNP hold you back. Hopefully the SNP have more integrity. 6 minutes ago, virginton said: Erm yes, that transition period with 350 full gammon Tory MPs braying their support for whatever shitshow Johnson agrees to is really going to be a real nail-biter! The transition period when we're still in the EU and can hold a referendum, become independent then rejoin without much adjustment. 9 minutes ago, virginton said: Well no, Scottish Labour didn't do any sort of deal with the Conservatives before 2007 - they were emptied from power because they were useless in government and unable to address the constitutional question. They were in a Lib-Lab pact then in cahoots with the Tories in Better Together. They've been an irrelevance since. 10 minutes ago, virginton said: Those are just words without a coherent point attached to them. What's the fucking point of being independent if it's just going to be the same dishonest shitshow it is now? How's that? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 1 minute ago, Granny Danger said: I said it would be part of public discourse well before now. It hadn’t been. It will fail; unfortunately. On what point? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
O'Kelly Isley III Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 Making beneficial deals with your enemies is how Scottish Labour has become a spent political voice unable to win a vote since 2007. That's no way to obtain a referendum let alone win one. Furthermore what kind of vision for the future of Scotland is more of the same?Leave it Baxter - you'd get more traction with an Old Testament prophet than this guy. I never know which grates more; the supercilious certitude which drips from every sentence or the constant inference that we are all idiots. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 5 minutes ago, virginton said: It's of course much easier to state this with the benefit of hindsight, but the precise moment for the SNP to take the exit route from Fail City is now obvious. It was when the Mumbleclown and Swinson were mutually bickering over who should lead a unity government, in the event of a VONC bringing down Johnson. The SNP should have slapped down an ultimatum that the gormless Remain Alliance got its act together and formed a caretaker administration under fucking anyone to put in place a confirmatory referendum on Brexit, UK-wide. If the clowns south of the border could not agree to that then the SNP should have thrown their hands in the air and played the deal with referendum card instead. This makes no fucking sense. What would the ultimatum be? Form a government or we'll...what? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 The idea of the SNP ignoring the wishes of 62% to hopefully please 45%+6 is deluded. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D Angelo Barksdale Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 I don't think VT is too far off in his analysis here IMO, but there's no chance the Tories would have given permanent section 30 powers to Holyrood in any deal. We may have got a referendum (possibly with strings attached). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said: I don't think VT is too far off in his analysis here IMO, but there's no chance the Tories would have given permanent section 30 powers to Holyrood in any deal. We may have got a referendum (possibly with strings attached). I don't see how the arithmetic could work out for a subsequent referendum. They'd certainly lose some support, I can't see where new Yes voters would come from to replace and add to them to take it over the line. Edited November 13, 2019 by welshbairn 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunning1874 Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 3 hours ago, MixuFixit said: I've said before that the Scottish Government should just start doing things in reserved areas where they would be popular locally. Drug safe rooms as an example. The Police want them and will look the other way if they were started up. Make the message "Scotland will do what's best for it's people" rather than "Scotland's voice is being ignored." Over a long period just make things normal by convention and make Westminster increasingly irrelevant. There are limits to that obviously but I think the PR of it working or of it provoking a heavy handed response from England both play to the nationalist cause over the long term. 3 hours ago, Frank Grimes said: Nice idea Mixu but that would be a slow burner to full independence I agree in isolation though Unless we get the unlikely parliamentary arithmetic of the SNP having leverage to get a Section 30 early on, any route from here is a slow burn. While it’s a good idea just because things like drug rooms are good policies and the right thing to do, continually doing it over reserved areas will provoke a response eventually and that’s where you can really turn the screw. Obviously we’ve already had this with specific Brexit legislation, but if you got to the position where the UK Government is the one taking the Scottish Government to court over multiple pieces of popular legislation which aren’t directly about constitutional issues saying you can’t legislate on this, you can’t legislate on that, it’s only going turn opinion against the UK, and probably increase ‘get the Scots to f**k!’ sentiment from England as well which helps. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 46 minutes ago, Baxter Parp said: The mandate hasn't been met yet. Ah yes, so let's just wait for all the pieces to magically fall together now, what with the gammon vote split and the Remain vote united across the u... oh wait that's the opposite way round isn't it? Quote It's an example of an alternative and has been suggested by certain twitter loons. So not at all relevant to this discussion right here then. Quote If you want to be a fucking hypocrite that wants to emulate the dishonesty and deceit of the Labour Party, LibDems and Tories, please don't let me or the SNP hold you back. Hopefully the SNP have more integrity. Spare me this utter claptrap. Politics is about prioritising your interests and using the best means at your disposal to bring them about. It is not some sort of morality play where the SNP or any other organisation must act as good guys because you say so. Quote The transition period when we're still in the EU and can hold a referendum, become independent then rejoin without much adjustment. Except that you can't actually hold a legal referendum when Boris says no to one. Game over. Quote They were in a Lib-Lab pact then in cahoots with the Tories in Better Together. They've been an irrelevance since. You said that signing deals with their enemies was what made Scottish Labour collapse. The Lib Dems were not even remotely an enemy and the Labour collapse began fully seven years before the independence referendum even took place. When serious political scientists rather than chumps like yourself are identifying the causes of Scottish Labour's terminal decline, 'signing up with the Tories in Better Together' will be part of the epilogue and not the main analysis. Quote What's the fucking point of being independent if it's just going to be the same dishonest shitshow it is now? How's that? Oooft, what a blubbering manchild you are. The most important skill in politics bar none is dissimulation - the SNP has already been doing this successfully for years, ever since Salmond wisely changed the party's angle to merely gaining control of the Scottish Executive in 2007 instead of calling for a referendum then and there. It's really not my fault that you have developed some utterly deluded fantasy about politics being cleared of all deception by the simple act of independence. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 (edited) 55 minutes ago, welshbairn said: The idea of the SNP ignoring the wishes of 62% to hopefully please 45%+6 is deluded. At no point ever have 62% of the Scottish electorate expressed a desire to both remain in the UK and the EU, so your claim that they would be ignored is absolute nonsense as usual. It is a four option choice and combining Scottish independence with the ability to stay in the EU is a stronger set than Scottish independence alone. What is truly laughable is that people are so ridiculously feart of holding another vote on those stakes or the usual wails of derision from media that would already be hostile regardless that they would rather place the immediate fate of their country in the hands of 600 constituencies over which Scottish voters can have no say, with the most unpopular leader of the opposition in political history and Jo fucking Swinson stepping up to the plate instead. It's sheer madness. Edited November 13, 2019 by vikingTON 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted November 13, 2019 Share Posted November 13, 2019 I really couldn't care less about people's concern about tone tbh. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.