The Partick Thistle thread

[jaggyness]

I know McCall said he expected more arrivals but given tomorrow is the final day of the window what are we realistically looking at? A defender and possibly a central midfielder? Anyone possibly on the way out? I would have thought the only possible exits would be youngsters on loan or Connor Murray?

[Pie Of The Month]

9 minutes ago, jaggyness said:

I know McCall said he expected more arrivals but given tomorrow is the final day of the window what are we realistically looking at? A defender and possibly a central midfielder? Anyone possibly on the way out? I would have thought the only possible exits would be youngsters on loan or Connor Murray?

He said in his post match interview possibly a defender and then said the loan window for us doesn't shut until the end of September.

[oneteaminglasgow]

10 minutes ago, jaggyness said:

I know McCall said he expected more arrivals but given tomorrow is the final day of the window what are we realistically looking at? A defender and possibly a central midfielder? Anyone possibly on the way out? I would have thought the only possible exits would be youngsters on loan or Connor Murray?

He said in an interview the other day about the loan window being up until end of September, so I think there’s a fair chance we’re looking at that rather than any permanent signings.

Is the limit still 4 players? We’ve got three the now, so leaves room for one more. 

[JagsCG]

1 hour ago, jaggyness said:

I would have thought the only possible exits would be youngsters on loan or Connor Murray?

Don’t think there will be any exits, all 4 modern apprentices are out on loan, and Connor Murray is still a decent versatile squad player. 

Edited August 30, 2021 by JagsCG

[Fuctifano]

58 minutes ago, oneteaminglasgow said:

He said in an interview the other day about the loan window being up until end of September, so I think there’s a fair chance we’re looking at that rather than any permanent signings.

Is the limit still 4 players? We’ve got three the now, so leaves room for one more. 

Pretty sure it's 6, was increased last season and I haven't heard about it being changed back.

Edit :for domestic loans, you can have unlimited from outside Scotland. Not sure if that avenue closes tomorrow and the extension to September is an SFA /SPFL thing. 

Edited August 30, 2021 by Fuctifano

[oneteaminglasgow]

I see Swansea have bid 5 million quid for Kevin Nisbet. Are solidarity payments still a thing, and we’ll get a small amount of money out of that? 

[D'Jaffo]

Seen a couple folk saying they’ve heard you’re after Muirhead

[Mediocre Pundit]

I see Swansea have bid 5 million quid for Kevin Nisbet. Are solidarity payments still a thing, and we’ll get a small amount of money out of that? 

Why would we, we released him?

[Nightmare]

1 hour ago, Mediocre Pundit said:

Why would we, we released him?

I’m sure that for transfers across jurisdictions, (eg. Scotland to England) 5% of the transfer fee is set aside and divided proportionally to the clubs who contributed to a player’s development. So anyone who had Nisbet up until the age of 21 (I think) would be entitled to a solidarity payment. Which in this case would mean that ourselves and possibly Raith might be eligible for some cash as part of the Nisbet deal. And whether we sold him, released him or he signed somewhere on a free is irrelevant.

This may well have changed now, but I remember reading about it 3 or 4 years ago.

[Fuctifano]

I think Nisbet is too old for that now but again I'm not 100%.

Muirhead would still be a very odd signing. He's clearly fine for this level but to pay money to another club in the division for a 31 year old who probably doesn't start if all of Mayo, Holt and Akinola are fit? 

[Skyline Drifter]

14 hours ago, Fuctifano said:

Pretty sure it's 6, was increased last season and I haven't heard about it being changed back.

Edit :for domestic loans, you can have unlimited from outside Scotland. Not sure if that avenue closes tomorrow and the extension to September is an SFA /SPFL thing. 

It was dropped to 5 for this season. Maximum of 3 from one club in a different division, or one from a club in the same division.

And yes, international loans close tonight at midnight. The September extension is a domestic arrangement within the SFA only.

Edited August 31, 2021 by Skyline Drifter

[Skyline Drifter]

1 hour ago, Nightmare said:

I’m sure that for transfers across jurisdictions, (eg. Scotland to England) 5% of the transfer fee is set aside and divided proportionally to the clubs who contributed to a player’s development. So anyone who had Nisbet up until the age of 21 (I think) would be entitled to a solidarity payment. Which in this case would mean that ourselves and possibly Raith might be eligible for some cash as part of the Nisbet deal. And whether we sold him, released him or he signed somewhere on a free is irrelevant.

This may well have changed now, but I remember reading about it 3 or 4 years ago.

 

1 hour ago, Fuctifano said:

I think Nisbet is too old for that now but again I'm not 100%.

No, he's right. Doesn't matter if he's 40. If Nisbet moves within contract, cross Border, then all clubs that contributed to his development between the ages of 12 and 23 get a share of 5% of the fee.

You're thinking of Development Compensation which ceases at 23. The former is Solidarity. Different thing.

Edited August 31, 2021 by Skyline Drifter

[oneteaminglasgow]

1 hour ago, Mediocre Pundit said:

Why would we, we released him?

Aye, what @Nightmare said. I’m certain this was a thing, so if it’s 5% of 5 million, and we had him between the ages of about 14 and 21, so we should be looking at a decent share of £250000. 

[jagfox]

Apparently signed for us from Hibs in 2012 so we would get a fair chunk of that solidarity payment.

Gets a bit cloudy with the loan moves though...do the loan club get the solidarity payment for that part of his career?

@Skyline Drifter

Edited August 31, 2021 by jagfox BLM

[Skyline Drifter]

1 hour ago, jagfox BLM said:

Apparently signed for us from Hibs in 2012 so we would get a fair chunk of that solidarity payment.

Gets a bit cloudy with the loan moves though...do the loan club get the solidarity payment for that part of his career?

@Skyline Drifter

He probably signed for you in mid 2012 when he was already 15. He appears to have departed in May 2018 at the age of 21. It will be worked out on days on a formula basis. I've amended my quote earlier. 5% is split between clubs who had him from 12 to 23, not 21.

The years from 12 to 15 you get 0.25% of the fee and the years from 16 to 23 you get 0.5% of the fee. Roughly speaking then Thistle might be entitled to 2.75% of the fee, give or take. Loan periods will depend on what was in the loan agreement but generally these things contain a clause asserting that any training compensation or solidarity payments in respect of the loan period will remain with the parent club. I imagine it's likely that Thistle will be due the money while he was on loan to East Stirling, Ayr and Dumbarton.

Fair chance Thistle might lift something between £100k and £150k if he goes within contract to England for £5m. Raith and Dunfermline would likely get about 0.5% each too (£25k). Plus Dunfermline will have a percentage of Hibs fee too of course.

[Jacky1990]

1 hour ago, Skyline Drifter said:

He probably signed for you in mid 2012 when he was already 15. He appears to have departed in May 2018 at the age of 21. It will be worked out on days on a formula basis. I've amended my quote earlier. 5% is split between clubs who had him from 12 to 23, not 21.

The years from 12 to 15 you get 0.25% of the fee and the years from 16 to 23 you get 0.5% of the fee. Roughly speaking then Thistle might be entitled to 2.75% of the fee, give or take. Loan periods will depend on what was in the loan agreement but generally these things contain a clause asserting that any training compensation or solidarity payments in respect of the loan period will remain with the parent club. I imagine it's likely that Thistle will be due the money while he was on loan to East Stirling, Ayr and Dumbarton.

Fair chance Thistle might lift something between £100k and £150k if he goes within contract to England for £5m. Raith and Dunfermline would likely get about 0.5% each too (£25k). Plus Dunfermline will have a percentage of Hibs fee too of course.

Does the solidarity pay only count for the upfront payment, or is it the final transfer fee?

For instance, if that £5m fee was split to £3m upfront, with £2m in add ons such as goals scored, promotion, international caps, etc, would Thistle get the 2.75% on the £3m then additional 2.75% on each of the add on payments?

[VictorOnopko]

4 hours ago, Fuctifano said:

I think Nisbet is too old for that now but again I'm not 100%.

Muirhead would still be a very odd signing. He's clearly fine for this level but to pay money to another club in the division for a 31 year old who probably doesn't start if all of Mayo, Holt and Akinola are fit? 

100% agree on Muirhead.  Also, if he does come back, I'd put money on him getting red carded at least once this season even if he's mainly used from the bench. 

[Skyline Drifter]

1 hour ago, Jacky1990 said:

Does the solidarity pay only count for the upfront payment, or is it the final transfer fee?

For instance, if that £5m fee was split to £3m upfront, with £2m in add ons such as goals scored, promotion, international caps, etc, would Thistle get the 2.75% on the £3m then additional 2.75% on each of the add on payments?

Counts on every payment as part of the transfer.

Anything else would be completely illogical. Transfers would be drafted as being £1 fee up front and £4.9m on making 1 appearance to cut out the Solidarity aspect if that was the case.

Edited August 31, 2021 by Skyline Drifter

[parsforlife]

1 hour ago, Skyline Drifter said:

Counts on every payment as part of the transfer.

Anything else would be completely illogical. Transfers would be drafted as being £1 fee up front and £4.9m on making 1 appearance to cut out the Solidarity aspect if that was the case.

Does this mean that clubs have sight of the transfer agreement, or are you relying on someone like the SFA telling you your due more money? I.e once the player plays 50 games do you suddenly get a message to say that results in a bigger fee and then your due x?   

Same question for sell on fees.

Also is this a one off thing or does it keep happening every time he moves.  Or is that just cross-border.

Would him returning to Scotland count? 

[Skyline Drifter]

9 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

Does this mean that clubs have sight of the transfer agreement, or are you relying on someone like the SFA telling you your due more money? I.e once the player plays 50 games do you suddenly get a message to say that results in a bigger fee and then your due x?   

Same question for sell on fees.

Also is this a one off thing or does it keep happening every time he moves.  Or is that just cross-border.

Would him returning to Scotland count? 

They won't have the right of sight of the agreement per se, though I would think in the Nisbet case if Dunfermline are as reputed due a share of the actual transfer they will do (as we did with Dykes to QPR from Livingston). Partick Thistle won't get a copy though. It's the responsibility of the buying club to identify the clubs entitled to a share and ensure they are paid what they are due. It's normally done through the FA. So were it to be Swansea, they would pay the 5% on each instalment to the Welsh FA who would distribute accordingly. I think a fair bit of it is done on trust, though clubs who think they will be due something will normally make enquiries through the SFA as we did back in the day when Dunfermline sold Wullie Gibson to Crawley Town and we were due a share.

It only applies to moves under FIFA governance so hence Cross Border, within contract. It doesn't apply if Hibs sell him to Rangers or Celtic and it won't further apply if a player moves within England. An interesting complication here potentially is that Swansea are actually Welsh. I confess I don't know if that means it would apply on a further move from Swansea to an English club of if there is some exemption for Swansea and Cardiff to consider them English in those circumstances.

But yes, if he comes straight back to Scotland for a transfer fee within contract then shares would be due again.