Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[joewarkfanclub]

3 minutes ago, ropy said:

What if we keep Van Veen?

We would need a robust partner to play up with him, I would have chosen Obika of the two we have but if he is permanently broken then we need to think again, if Mandron is cheap then his cheeky smile would let him away with most things.  I wonder if Jordan White could have done a job, he was largely rotten for us but was very unfortunate with the start he had then our sporadic use of him didn’t  seem to suit his game.  I think a White/Van Veen partnership would have worked.

I was actually thinking that last night watching Sportscene.

He wasnt the striker we needed at the time, but I think he would be a good foil for Kev.

[ropy]

KVV needs to trust those around him (i.e.rate them), he trusted Moult and trusts Spittal, other than that he is having a shot.

[Handsome_Devil]

28 minutes ago, ropy said:

What if we keep Van Veen?

We would need a robust partner to play up with him, I would have chosen Obika of the two we have but if he is permanently broken then we need to think again, if Mandron is cheap then his cheeky smile would let him away with most things.  I wonder if Jordan White could have done a job, he was largely rotten for us but was very unfortunate with the start he had then our sporadic use of him didn’t  seem to suit his game.  I think a White/Van Veen partnership would have worked.

White was rotten for us because Robinson wanted him in a 4-3-3 variation which tried to play football. 

He's clearly an adequate bottom half striker in the sense of being Main, Mandron etc...he does a tonne of work and offers a little but requires the rest of the team to do the glamorous stuff. If this happens he gets a pat on the back, if it doesn't he gets a train ticket back to the Highlands...

Edited May 14, 2023 by Handsome_Devil

[capt_oats]

We're truly through the looking glass if we're on to reappraising Jordan White lads. What a time.

Tbh, listening to Kettlewell talking about the size of the squad in that interview that went up through the week and also his bit about being prepared to have tough conversations it made me wonder if he was setting up for a bit of a cull in the summer.

In fairness to Hammell, for all we've once again ended up with an enlarged squad the bulk of those January signings were on short term deals so it's not like we've tied ourselves down on that front.

On the Casey chat, I'm increasingly getting Ally Gorrin vibes from his situation ie: a player we picked up seemingly from nowhere who we had next to no expectations of who's turned out to be really fucking good.

I could easily see some lower Championship/upper League 1 mob like Barnsley or whatever having clocked his #data and being willing to take a punt. Which would be really fucking annoying.

Edited May 14, 2023 by capt_oats

[Handsome_Devil]

1 hour ago, capt_oats said:

 

On the Casey chat, I'm increasingly getting Ally Gorrin vibes from his situation ie: a player we picked up seemingly from nowhere who we had next to no expectations of who's turned out to be really fucking good.

Obviously not knowing if he was interested in a longer deal but for me Casey should have been a Kipre-esque extension after three games.

[RandomGuy.]

1 hour ago, capt_oats said:

I could easily see some lower Championship/upper League 1 mob like Barnsley or whatever having clocked his #data and being willing to take a punt. Which would be really fucking annoying.

I do wonder how well "meat and tatties" CBs show up in data, tbh. CBs are notoriously hard to get right simply because data just can't fathom out defensive stuff yet. These say Butcher has been poor as a CB which I know fine well will get me absolute pelters. Its just hard to show a player who can read the game well etc. if they're not racking up figures because they don't need to do anything, if that makes sense?

I've got him as a slightly above average CB this season...

So wonder how teams would be pointing him out via data by looking up here.

[MP_MFC]

1 hour ago, Handsome_Devil said:

Obviously not knowing if he was interested in a longer deal but for me Casey should have been a Kipre-esque extension after three games.

From what I gather it’s not been from lack of trying 

[Kapowzer]

If I was a scout I'd spend a few days reading through forums and you'd get a good feel for what a player is based on the general consensus of the support. Not scientific but comments like "he's too good for us", "he'll be playing at a higher level in no time" etc. when corroborated would make me take a closer look.

Reading match threads and seeing stuff like "X's first poor game in 10" would make me move a player up in my estimations.

A quick read of our own thread for an English scout would tell them that Kev still get goals in a front three but is on fire with a foil as part of a pair. If that doesn't fit what you currently have or desire to move towards then he's maybe not your man.

[Swello]

No POTY for KVV - bastart. 

[YassinMoutaouakil]

Stitch up.

[MurrayWell]

Feel for Kev, felt he deserved it. Awk well, he'll just need to stay and win it next year... 

Edited May 14, 2023 by MurrayWell

[Busta Nut]

Kyogo only had help from all the best players in the league...

I mean fair play the bloke, a great wee player when he's not folding like a deck chair.

 

Edited May 14, 2023 by Busta Nut

[Mr. Brightside]

So is that the shirt is unofficially un-cursed?

[Cloontang]

Just to put it into perspective, Michael Higdon was the last non Old Firm player to win the award ten years ago then before Higdon you need to go back to the 1989/90 when Jim Bett won it. I know tap in has scored plenty goals this season but the general consensus from Celtic fans I know was that Reo Hatate was the fave.

What a season VV has had, really pulled us out of trouble with his quality. You think of the misses he has had against Aberdeen, Dundee United x 2, Livi etc he could have been well beyond 30 for the season. I know I'm wearing C & A specs but his contribution to the side no player was more deserving of winning it.

Kinda like a few years ago when Callum Davidson wins a double for St Johnstone but Steven Gerrard wins the manager award. 

[capt_oats]

13 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

I do wonder how well "meat and tatties" CBs show up in data, tbh. CBs are notoriously hard to get right simply because data just can't fathom out defensive stuff yet. These say Butcher has been poor as a CB which I know fine well will get me absolute pelters. Its just hard to show a player who can read the game well etc. if they're not racking up figures because they don't need to do anything, if that makes sense?

I've got him as a slightly above average CB this season...

So wonder how teams would be pointing him out via data by looking up here.

Full disclosure, it hadn't even crossed my mind that his numbers wouldn't necessarily show up that well.

I was just working on the assumption that whatever it was that put him on our radar would have been bumped given his form since he's been here and going out on a limb I'd suggest that we weren't readily scouting the USL Conference.

[well fan for life]

25 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

Full disclosure, it hadn't even crossed my mind that his numbers wouldn't necessarily show up that well.

I was just working on the assumption that whatever it was that put him on our radar would have been bumped given his form since he's been here and going out on a limb I'd suggest that we weren't readily scouting the USL Conference.

I'm wondering if we opened up all our data analysis software and checked the "Isn't Ricki Lamie" box.

[thisGRAEME]

33 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

Full disclosure, it hadn't even crossed my mind that his numbers wouldn't necessarily show up that well.

I was just working on the assumption that whatever it was that put him on our radar would have been bumped given his form since he's been here and going out on a limb I'd suggest that we weren't readily scouting the USL Conference.

Tbf like, all you have to do is look at basically any 'WhoScored' bits of content doing the rounds for 'Team of the Season' and stuff. They consistently had Shane Duffy at Celtic in their Team of the Week content because whatever their algorithm is massively over-weights (Is this a real term? Who knows.) specific things, I suspect shots/headers at goal, which is broadly irrelevant for a CB if you're a fucking disaster defensively.

Given our 'Radar', f**k knows. A bit of googling (may be accurate, may not) tells me that Casey, Mahon, Darragh O'Connor (and presumably Tierney, although i can't actually find him) all have links to 'Quorum Sports Management' group, soooo... 

[Swello]

I know it's all about the data now -but how does data modelling attempt to capture the "intangibles"? I'm sure this has been attempted as raw numbers alone aren't enough to depict what a player is really like, regardless of the algorithm used - and "human stuff" matters as well as pace or how many headers someone wins.

One of the aspects that both Butcher and Casey bring is a bit of leadership, a bit of agression - setting the tone for the team in a way that we were pathetically crying out for at the turn of the year. As supporters, we're actually very good at spotting these sorts of "positive" traits in players and it's clear that since they came in, they've brought a lot more than just basic competence.

Simplistically, data would get you Zak Jules but it wouldn't get you Peter Hartley.

[thisGRAEME]

16 minutes ago, Swello said:

I know it's all about the data now -but how does data modelling attempt to capture the "intangibles"?

This is ultimately where people earn their money. Data helps narrow the field, an eye test gives you the rest, although as usual, having actually done a bit of it I think @RandomGuy. probably can offer a bit more insight.

I dunno, the answer isn't a hard and fast for either is my guess. Robinson is a good example, I reckon, was big on signing 'Characters' for a bit, some of whom were just shite at football (Connor Sammon probably scores very highly on the 'good laddie' index). Ilic, Seedorf and Sloth probably scored as outliers on the 'strong at [X ABILITY]' side of data, married with our belief at the time that we could fix players/give them a chance to return to form. They also, were quite shite at football. 

All in all: We'll be taking punts, in one way or another. That's always been true, we just take slightly more educated punts from a wider area, now.

Edited May 15, 2023 by thisGRAEME

[RandomGuy.]

5 minutes ago, thisGRAEME said:

This is ultimately where people earn their money. Data helps narrow the field, an eye test gives you the rest.

I think this is it really. Data is mostly useful for giving you a shortlist of players worth watching, and even then it can get that wrong if you dont use it correctly. It can help show weaknesses really quickly for the most part, and can be good at showing how a player likes to play.

Eye test is still more important for actually assessing how the player fits in and if theyd be worth signing, as team style can heavily impact a players data and make them look worse/better than they are.

Im miles from being an expert on anything though so could be a load of bollocks, its just how i see it. I think Casey probably shows up great if you look for a CB whos dominant aerially, reliable on the ground. Youd then watch him, see that he is what the data says defensively, and try and assess whether the poor passing figures are ability or style, and whether it improves in a better side.

The company you use to find players will be far more advanced than what i can access/make, so they might have a better way of doing it datawise.