Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[Gianfranco]

It's the crowd noise just before the goal goes in for me. Up there with Moult’s lob at Hampden in the noise porn stakes. 

[CoF]

15 hours ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

I really don't get how some on the match thread are bent out of shape about the second half performance. We scored three goals, had another disallowed, as well as two or three other good chances before half time. Instances of us having a first half like that and continuing to play with such fluency in the second half must be few and far between. Today was about finding a way to win a game, having not done so for so long, and we did it. 

It'll be interesting what happens now. Kettlewell has only really had one long good run and one long bad run as manager. I wonder if this will kick off a good run of form, whether we'll revert to the form that we were in or whether we'll finally see us win, draw and lose games in a more equal proportion.

I'm usually pretty optimistic but I had a bit of a moan in the match thread about that second half. 

Livi are unbelievably shite, they've scored 3 goals in 12 games and taken 2 points from 36. As good as we were in the first half, their performance was utterly shambolic. As soon as they changed shape and got organised they completely nullified us. I don't think we'd have beaten any other team in the league with yesterday's performance so for me nothing has really changed. I agree completely with you about finding a way to win a game, but I'm still pretty pessimistic that this will be any sort of turn around - there is no evidence that we gain confidence from results that should give us a lift (last minute equalisers, 1-1 at Parkhead), and that second half performance just added to that. 

Tuesday will be interesting. A decent result and I could start to believe there's some sort of shift in the mentality, yesterday did little to change that though. 

 

[ropy]

It is e-tickets on Tuesday isn’t it, it will be a morning decision whether I am heading to this or not.

[Handsome_Devil]

15 minutes ago, CoF said:

I'm usually pretty optimistic but I had a bit of a moan in the match thread about that second half. 

Livi are unbelievably shite, they've scored 3 goals in 12 games and taken 2 points from 36. As good as we were in the first half, their performance was utterly shambolic. As soon as they changed shape and got organised they completely nullified us. I don't think we'd have beaten any other team in the league with yesterday's performance so for me nothing has really changed. I agree completely with you about finding a way to win a game, but I'm still pretty pessimistic that this will be any sort of turn around - there is no evidence that we gain confidence from results that should give us a lift (last minute equalisers, 1-1 at Parkhead), and that second half performance just added to that. 

Tuesday will be interesting. A decent result and I could start to believe there's some sort of shift in the mentality, yesterday did little to change that though. 

Yesterday basically depends on whether you're minded to praise SK or still want to bury him...

Those of a generous disposition will say he picked a team for the opposition and conditions, and pretty much nailed it, even if the second half obviously wasn't a pretty watch.

Critics will say we weren't far off being as rotten as usual, 5-2-3 with Shaw is insane, and it was only Livingston being a joke that saw us win.

I flit between both views tbh...the selection, tactics, performance and result on Tuesday will probably go a long way to deciding how much progress we made, or didn't, against Livingston.

[Pepper]

Have to echo the posts about the over the top reaction to the second half yesterday. It' utterly bizarre folk don't get why it was inevitable the game went the way it did. 

 

[joewarkfanclub]

2 minutes ago, Pepper said:

Have to echo the posts about the over the top reaction to the second half yesterday. It' utterly bizarre folk don't get why it was inevitable the game went the way it did. 

 

I wasnt surprised the game went the way it did. I was just surprised that we didnt do anything to change it.

If we wanted to just close the game out and secure the win I dont understand why we didnt bolster the midfield.

Putting Slattery up top wide right seemed a bit wild.

As it was Livvy were getting chances as the defence had no protection. Extra bodies in there might have helped fill the space.

[RostokMcSpoons]

19 minutes ago, joewarkfanclub said:

Putting Slattery up top wide right seemed a bit wild.

Maybe it was too keep him out of the way so his mistakes weren't going to immediately lead to a big chance for the opposition.

Didn't entirely work, he was that bad yesterday... 

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

1 hour ago, CoF said:

I'm usually pretty optimistic but I had a bit of a moan in the match thread about that second half. 

Livi are unbelievably shite, they've scored 3 goals in 12 games and taken 2 points from 36. As good as we were in the first half, their performance was utterly shambolic. As soon as they changed shape and got organised they completely nullified us. I don't think we'd have beaten any other team in the league with yesterday's performance so for me nothing has really changed. I agree completely with you about finding a way to win a game, but I'm still pretty pessimistic that this will be any sort of turn around - there is no evidence that we gain confidence from results that should give us a lift (last minute equalisers, 1-1 at Parkhead), and that second half performance just added to that. 

Tuesday will be interesting. A decent result and I could start to believe there's some sort of shift in the mentality, yesterday did little to change that though. 

It's important not to get overly excited over our first win in 16 games, I do agree. However bad Livingston may be, we aren't great shakes ourselves and I don't think we have any right to expect, or even want to have that first half performance replicated in the second half. If Livingston nullified us as you say, then it would have been a dangerous game opening up any further with a back three made up of two right backs and Bevis Mugabi. 

I must admit that I thought the team sheet could've doubled up as a resignation letter. I still don't think that 5-2-3 is the answer, or even a real formation, but the impact on yesterday was probably more psychological. We scored three times in the first half, we went in front and protected our lead, we actually won a game and we went seven points clear of the bottom of the league, massively lessening our chances of automatic relegation.

Each last minute equaliser meant less and less for momentum as the dark cloud without a win lingered. Being realistic, I just don't think we'll ever be in a position this season where we can be aggrieved about the second half of a game that we essentially won in the first half. 

Edited December 31, 2023 by crazylegsjoe_mfc

[YassinMoutaouakil]

It's a bit weird where I think we could probably "come good" and still end up in the playoffs. I reckon everyone from Dundee upwards is safe already, Aberdeen have enough games in hand that they'll either turn it around or sack Robson fairly soon. Then there's St Johnstone, Ross County and ourselves who I think are all slightly more competent than the usual standard of team that ends up 10th or 11th. Hopefully Livi are just done.

[Stevie Kirk]

1 hour ago, ropy said:

It is e-tickets on Tuesday isn’t it, it will be a morning decision whether I am heading to this or not.

Yes it’s e tickets mate. Though you have to register with Hibs and if you are buying for your kids you need to register them as well . I just did it just now as the link to away tickets is still up on the Motherwell website - these links have a habit of being taken down if you leave it too late in my experience.

[Stevie Kirk]

1 hour ago, joewarkfanclub said:

I wasnt surprised the game went the way it did. I was just surprised that we didnt do anything to change it.

If we wanted to just close the game out and secure the win I dont understand why we didnt bolster the midfield.

Putting Slattery up top wide right seemed a bit wild.

As it was Livvy were getting chances as the defence had no protection. Extra bodies in there might have helped fill the space.

Looking at the bench we have no defensive midfield cover to bring on and see a game out. We also have no pacy winger to bring on as an out ball either. All we have are kids and a pile of slow strikers and that has to be addressed in January.

[Handsome_Devil]

1 hour ago, RostokMcSpoons said:

Maybe it was too keep him out of the way so his mistakes weren't going to immediately lead to a big chance for the opposition.

Didn't entirely work, he was that bad yesterday... 

A guy near me in the Cooper was constantly demanding we put our foot on the ball to kill the game - normally a reasonable shout, Slattery giving away 15-yard square passes probably showed why the tactics employed were correct for the circumstances.

Obviously just guessing but doing psychology from a distance, when Slattery loses form he'd be much better staying calm, doing the simple thing and playing himself back into rhythm. Instead he seems to become ever more frantic and try ever more ambitious stuff because he's desperate to regain the lost touch. With predictable consequences.

[RandomGuy.]

4 hours ago, mcfadden22 said:

Anybody any idea why Hibs & St Johnstone were the only 2 teams not playing yesterday. I know they played one another on 16 Dec but it doesn’t seem fair that two teams get a week between fixtures while the others only get 3 days

 

4 hours ago, ropy said:

They were due to play the League Cup finalists that week so rather than a blank weekend they brought this one forward. 

 

4 hours ago, mcfadden22 said:

That shouldn’t have been allowed

Huge fan of this conversation btw.

[capt_oats]

2 hours ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

It's important not to get overly excited over our first win in 16 games, I do agree. However bad Livingston may be, we aren't great shakes ourselves and I don't think we have any right to expect, or even want to have that first half performance replicated in the second half. If Livingston nullified us as you say, then it would have been a dangerous game opening up any further with a back three made up of two right backs and Bevis Mugabi. 

I must admit that I thought the team sheet could've doubled up as a resignation letter. I still don't think that 5-2-3 is the answer, or even a real formation, but the impact on yesterday was probably more psychological. We scored three times in the first half, we went in front and protected our lead, we actually won a game and we went seven points clear of the bottom of the league, massively lessening our chances of automatic relegation.

Each last minute equaliser meant less and less for momentum as the dark cloud without a win. Being realistic, I just don't think we'll ever be in a position this season where we can be aggrieved about the second half of a game that we essentially won in the first half. 

Massively this.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still very much a Kettlewell sceptic (and have been since he got the job).

As I've said before he feels very much a short term, temporary fix to me - a guy who's come in and wildly overachieved but also someone that the next manager will benefit from with him having cleared the decks and done all the shitty stuff the board have asked be done (excess trimmed, wages:turnover ratio brought under control etc).

I agree with both @Casagolda and @thisGRAEME's points that Kettlewell has been his own worst enemy this season. Outside signing/re-signing players with known injury problems I think our recruitment has been fine. The issue has broadly been how Kettlewell's handled them.

He'd have had no real argument had he been emptied before yesterday - we've been a side that's been underperforming. I think it was @Swello who mentioned a while back that most of the same criticisms we had of Hammell could be levelled at Kettlewell.

The difference I guess is that the squad haven't collectively chucked it.

However, having said all that, the whole narrative in the build up to the Livi game was that it was a must-win and Kettlewell should be getting his jotters if we didn't.

Whether that would have happened...we'll never know but as I said last night it feels pretty churlish to be moving the goal-posts on the fact that we won (which was literally the one job he had) and litigating the opposition and performance in the second half especially as we were a team without a win in 15 and had the game won by half-time. It's not like we scraped a 1-0 win in the 97th minute or whatever.

As Graeme said further up the page - baby steps. So take it for what it is - a good result in a game we needed to win.

We've all seen better Motherwell sides than this come unstuck in these sort of fixtures.

Clearly one swallow doesn't a summer make but as I said yesterday, it's really up to Kettlewell what happens now - he's got himself a January window so we'll see how that goes and to echo your point from ages ago - given every other manager we've had has been given an opportunity to fix things in January he could probably have felt a bit sore if he hadn't.

Either way the only way he gets credit back in the bank and keeps the fans onside is by winning games of football.

Edited December 31, 2023 by capt_oats

[Handsome_Devil]

16 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

As I've said it before he feels very much a short term, temporary fix to me - a guy who's come in and wildly overachieved but also someone that the next manager will benefit from with him having cleared the decks and done all the shitty stuff the board have asked be done (excess trimmed, wages:turnover ratio brought under control etc).

I guess it's not been much considered given our immediate problems but if - caveats aplenty etc - we're going to keep him while not moving massively clear of the playoffs, we're in an odd position for next season.

SK will - presumably - be pushing to stay and get a 'normal' summer transfer window.

But we're hardly going to want to commit to a guy who might get us relegated. On the other hand, the whole reason for keeping him is to finally get some stability - renewing contracts, looking for targets etc is much harder if we're not deciding the fate of the manager till May.

Edited December 31, 2023 by Handsome_Devil

[ropy]

If we finish 10th or above he will get a new contract, maybe one of those fancy 1 year rolling ones.

What was the latest update on Lennon Miller, was it end January-ish for his return.  I don’t know if a 17 year old bounces back slower or quicker from a serious injury than a seasoned pro.  He might just be an option off the bench for a wee while.

I hope Kettlewell gets time over the break to reflect on what he has done well and where he has fallen down.  If he learns from mistakes and builds on positives he can be a successful manager.  If he reverts to doing the same things consistently whether they work or not, as has been seen before, he will fail.

I don’t buy that he is an inexperienced manager.  He may have been but he is gaining his experience by working with us.  If he left then his CV would say he had managed two top flight clubs.  (He may not mention the league positions he left each team in).

[Handsome_Devil]

1 hour ago, ropy said:

If we finish 10th or above he will get a new contract, maybe one of those fancy 1 year rolling ones.

Aye and if we're obviously going to be 10th from March that's fine. But while 38 points from 38 games is almost certainly safe, you could also be on 35 points from 37 which is brown trousers time. And probably not the point you're offering SK even a rolling year.

[Ceiling Granny]

I think while it’s probably ott to get carried away with the second half yesterday, it’s understandable why that’s the reaction. Say we’d have come out, went full pelt and the game had finished 3-2 I think people would have looked on the second half far more favourably. Like it or not, when you’re shite playing a good half against livingston isn’t going to take the fans with you on the “we’ve turned a corner” narrative.  Coming out second half, keeping pressing, making a few chances etc, irrespective of if we’d conceded again, would have got the crowd more involved and people would have left far happier. It’s a psychology thing imo, people want to see the press, not a game petering out. 

[Swello]

When a random photo memory reminds you of happy days.

[fat_tony]

Speaking of random memories, how about a little trivia question?

I was down a rabbit hole of former players and got to Dougie Arnott. The fact we signed him from the Juniors rang a bell regarding a player that I was sure we'd signed from the Juniors under McGhee (first spell). Big hairy b*****d who was, to my memory, utter dugmeat.

Anyone remember who he was?

Spoiler

Martin Grehan. Signed January 2008 and looked way out of his depth.