Brexit slowly becoming a Farce.

[renton]

1 minute ago, tirso said:

Not sure what's wrong with a structure that has community councils, local government, regional government and national government to be honest. 

Not sure what's wrong with a public audit system including Audit Scotland and the Accounts Commission.

If these didn't exist, you'd invent them.

The UK is not impenetrable to change.  See Devolution, Independence , Brexit, private house ownership, women in workplace, social changes, upward mobility.  The majority of PMs in my company are ethnically from another part of the world.  That would never have happened 20 years ago.

The UK is one of the richest countries in the world and the general drift will be towards us getting poorer in comparison - unless defense mechanisms are put in place.  Don't doubt it for a minute.  That's the nature of removing inequality.

If the people don't like it, they can vote them out.  Can't remember what we disagree about!

 

 

 

It certainly has local government. It doesn't use it very well. To reiterate, I see this is a structural issue, of how we set bodies up and how they interact with each other. What that means for the people using those services. A better government, or at the very least better political parties follow from an electorate used to engaging with the process meaningfully at the local level - for example. 

Other examples would be our frankly labyrinthine tax code, designed with more loop holes than a civil war fort, a system that practically begs to be abused and corrupted. 

Or our infrastructure spending, aimed almost exclusively at one region of the UK, apologetically so as well. A system built to allow one region of the UK -London and the SE of England - to accrue all the wealth and then for the government to redistribute that money to other regions is both structurally unsound in terms of the volatility of how that region raises money as well as morally and spiritually bankrupting for those parts of the populace who are told basically that their existence matters little beyond handouts, and so in large parts of the UK things like upwards mobility are a bad joke.

If the UK didn't exist, you better believe you wouldn't invent it now.

And while the UK is capable of social change, I mean that Westminster itself is not. Nothing new ever percolates there. Even Brexit is far more of a Tory party psychodrama about their priorities in that palace than they are a genuine argument about re configuring the UK economy and politics. Devolution was designed as a trap to fob off the Celts with as little powers beyond those invested in the SoS office for those nations as was felt necessary. All in the name of trying to relieve pressure on the UK system rather than having an honest discussion about what and why the UK should be. Now, in the face of a referendum they think they might actually lose they are churlish and reluctant to grant one. 

As I said originally, It's not about relentless negativity. You can be personally and professionally happy and still be utterly dismayed at the way your country is governed (into the ground) for the sakes of some fucking mind games in Westminster.

[tirso]

21 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Britons are uniquely ill informed about EU politics because of a hostile or apathetic media. Eurosceptics fight tooth and nail to prevent power going to the directly elected Parliament, instead keeping it in the hands of member states through the Council of Ministers or the Commission through member states' nominated representatives, and then whine about a democratic deficit. The fact remains when you ask leavers what EU laws or regulations they would change they invariably can't come up with anything, and when you push them on what taking back control actually means, it always comes back to foreigners and immigration. Meanwhile far more immigrants come from outside the EU where we've always had control, and the controls we have available for EU immigration we don't bother using.

It's also a tactic to say Britons are the only people that don't understand it.  Hardly anyone does.  

[welshbairn]

Brexitry at its finest. Could be a speech at a Bowling Club considering leaving their local association.

Quote

Widdecombe, who was criticised earlier this month for claiming that science might “produce an answer” to being gay, said the UK’s departure from the EU equated to a liberation.

She said: “There is a pattern consistent throughout history of oppressed people turning on their oppressors, slaves against their owners, the peasantry against the feudal barons, colonies, against empires and that is why Britain is leaving … It doesn’t matter which language you use, we are leaving and we are pleased to be going. Nous allons, wir gehen, we are off!”

The Brexit party’s MEP for the South East, Alexandra Phillips, tweeted: “Tears in my eyes. She represents the ignored majority. Brave and principled. Our Ann.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/04/ann-widdecombe-likens-brexit-to-emancipation-of-slaves

Edited July 4, 2019 by welshbairn

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, renton said:

It certainly has local government. It doesn't use it very well. To reiterate, I see this is a structural issue, of how we set bodies up and how they interact with each other. What that means for the people using those services. A better government, or at the very least better political parties follow from an electorate used to engaging with the process meaningfully at the local level - for example. 

Other examples would be our frankly labyrinthine tax code, designed with more loop holes than a civil war fort, a system that practically begs to be abused and corrupted. 

Or our infrastructure spending, aimed almost exclusively at one region of the UK, apologetically so as well. A system built to allow one region of the UK -London and the SE of England - to accrue all the wealth and then for the government to redistribute that money to other regions is both structurally unsound in terms of the volatility of how that region raises money as well as morally and spiritually bankrupting for those parts of the populace who are told basically that their existence matters little beyond handouts, and so in large parts of the UK things like upwards mobility are a bad joke.

If the UK didn't exist, you better believe you wouldn't invent it now.

And while the UK is capable of social change, I mean that Westminster itself is not. Nothing new ever percolates there. Even Brexit is far more of a Tory party psychodrama about their priorities in that palace than they are a genuine argument about re configuring the UK economy and politics. Devolution was designed as a trap to fob off the Celts with as little powers beyond those invested in the SoS office for those nations as was felt necessary. All in the name of trying to relieve pressure on the UK system rather than having an honest discussion about what and why the UK should be. Now, in the face of a referendum they think they might actually lose they are churlish and reluctant to grant one. 

As I said originally, It's not about relentless negativity. You can be personally and professionally happy and still be utterly dismayed at the way your country is governed (into the ground) for the sakes of some fucking mind games in Westminster.

Another excellent post.

Everything in this country exists to benefit the few and drain the wealth from the bottom upwards. Our stockmarket is one of the most corrupt and unregulated markets in the developed world and it's for that very reason that London is home to so many extremely shady Russian, American, Chinese and Indian "entrepreneurs", of course we also have more than our fair share of home grown spivs in this regard.

We lurch from one scandal to another but nothing ever changes as those at the top are controlled by powerful lobbyists who ensure they have a comfortable lifestyle for "looking after" their interests.

I'm aware of this and reading the posts I can see that there's quite a few of us on this forum also aware of exactly what's going on, it doesn't mean that we lie awake at night worrying about it, but at the same time nothing ever changes if everyone takes the "ignorance is bliss" stance on things.

As welshbairn has mentioned, we get told virtually nothing about Europe in this country as all our news is driven by the USA and we're told what they want us to hear. We also have the situation where many believe we're still at war with Germany and that Poland, Czech Rep, Slovakia etc are communist regimes with Russia at the head controlling everything !!

They'd have us believe that the Polish economy is a shambles as "that's why they're all over here", however as anyone who's been to Poland recently will tell you, the country is absolutely thriving with lots of investment, good quality jobs and technologically advanced towns and city's. 

They'll point to the "high unemployment in Europe" with Spain often being singled out as having nearly 30% unemployment while the UK is at all time low unemployment rates of 3%, however, what they won't tell you is that our "economically active" rate of 16-64 year olds is in fact only 73% which in reality terms means that 27% are effectively unemployed in this country as opposed to this mythical 3% figure. There's then a fair majority of our "employed" working on zero hours contracts or delivering pizzas in the "gig" economy.

We then have the age old argument of "socialism doesn't work" and the likes of Venezuela and Cuba are rolled out as shining examples of failure (minus the fact that US sanctions created their problems). You notice that these oracles never like to talk about countries such as Norway when socialism is mentioned as that doesn't quite suit their agenda.

From a Scottish perspective I really can't see anything other than independence within the next decade as it should be clear to everyone that the Tory party are pushing towards an agenda which is alien to almost all in Scotland, irrespective of their political persuasion. Whether it's Hunt or Johnson we won't be included or required in their plans as they see the threat in the form of Farage and the right and this is the area where they must "win back" their supporters.

Where does that leave us ? Totally screwed one would think.

If we thought we were getting a raw deal with HS2, Crossrail, Dartford Tunnels & further Heathow extensions, then I'm afraid we ain't seen nothin yet. Once the EU regional funding has gone and we look to westminster for our scraps then we'll really start seeing poverty up here, probably a return to the Thatcher years will be on the cards.

Of course we could be all right once we scrap corporation tax and increase the tax rate for the highest earners as I'm sure they'll all look after little old us just as the drip down Economic model promises.................

[John Lambies Doos]

Every business will be affected by Brexit. That will be either directly or via their customers having a different amount of money to spend because their jobs are at risk. There will also be opportunities for many companies. A large number of jobs in 10 years time haven't been invented yet.
Are you somehow suggesting that having Brexit potentially affecting my business is an excuse for me to wallow in negative self pity rather than try to find a way around it?

No, I was just asking what type of business you had. Fair enough if you don't want to say.

[BFTD]

2 hours ago, Kaz said:

Hang on, is it not Oaksoft who regularly voices doubt as to whether Scotland is capable of being the same as every other nation in the world because our young people are lazy or some such nonsense. Lecturing people about negativity

That was the old, frothing-at-the-mouth, Daily Mail-quoting troll Oaksoft. The one that people seemed to have stopped replying to.

This is Oaksoft v2.0, who's making hay while the sun is still shining on his new Internets Persona. The old one was funnier.

[John Lambies Doos]

What'll you do if he says dogfood? [emoji3]

Wag my tail I'd guess

[Frank Quitely]

Every business will be affected by Brexit. That will be either directly or via their customers having a different amount of money to spend because their jobs are at risk. There will also be opportunities for many companies. A large number of jobs in 10 years time haven't been invented yet.
Are you somehow suggesting that having Brexit potentially affecting my business is an excuse for me to wallow in negative self pity rather than try to find a way around it?

I've been reading your recent posts and I reckon you may be the Jack Black fella, the guy who ran Mindstore a few years back...he used to fill the SECC with gullible folk who thought they boost their bank balances, sorry change the world, by the power of positive thinking. Bullshit, the lot of it, but Jack made a fortune.

I much prefer the dictum of Ambrose Bierce who defined a cynic as someone who sees the world as it and not how it should be. Maybe you should open your eyes to what's going on around you.

[trainspotter]

2 hours ago, welshbairn said:

Brexitry at its finest. Could be a speech at a Bowling Club considering leaving their local association.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/04/ann-widdecombe-likens-brexit-to-emancipation-of-slaves

That bit about colonies rebelling against their imperialist masters might not be what her more dedicated fanbase wants to hear. Not that Anne Widdecombe would ever know what its like to be on the side of the oppressed.

 

[AUFC90]

Everybody trying to trap poor Oaksoft. He's always smiling though.

[John Lambies Doos]

The problem is that I have learned that on this forum, people tend to be devious. They ask a series of seemingly harmless questions they don't actually care about to try and lead you down a path to the question they really want to ask, the intention being to try and trap you. I'm not interested in being manipulated and controlled in that manner. It's the very thing most people hate about politics.
If that wasn't your intention then fair enough but you can understand my reticence. Especially in light of the personal abuse you've chucked my way recently.

Personal abuse? Mate it's a satirical football forum. No hard feelings.

[BFTD]

Looks like we're almost back to the "ooh, I really hate this forum" tantrums. Marvellous stuff.

[Frank Quitely]

No idea what you are talking about here.
Listen, if you are happy wallowing in self pity that is your call.
We'll all be dead soon enough anyway.
I'd just rather enjoy my time whilst I am here.

Forget the greenie, that was a slip of the finger.

I'd have thought that it would have been obvious what I was on about; positive thinking is a cosmetic blandishment when set against the things that will really change UK society; an end to widening inequality, people and corporations paying their dues, a Bill of Rights, the abolition of the Ruritanian monarchy and the scaling back of military misadventures and the diversification of associated jobs. And above all, an honest recognition of our obligations to the planet.

That's does not equate to self-pity but it will involve commitment from us all. Enjoy your time by all means but don't blind yourself to reality.

Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk

[DeeTillEhDeh]

That was the old, frothing-at-the-mouth, Daily Mail-quoting troll Oaksoft. The one that people seemed to have stopped replying to.
This is Oaksoft v2.0, who's making hay while the sun is still shining on his new Internets Persona. The old one was funnier.

Unintentionally funnier though.

[emoji48]

[Detournement]

The English and Welsh Greens are making Remain electoral pacts with the Austerity Dems. True colours very much on show. 

I don't see wee Patrick going for that up here. 

Edited July 5, 2019 by Detournement

[Whitburn Vale]

22 hours ago, Detournement said:

The English and Welsh Greens are making Remain electoral pacts with the Austerity Dems. True colours very much on show. 

I don't see wee Patrick going for that up here. 

No chance of mr.harvie doing that up here,another example of how we are different from the rest of the UK.

The independence supporting Scottish greens and yoon lib dems hooking up is a no-no here,thankfully.

[Granny Danger]

14 minutes ago, Whitburn Vale said:

No chance of mr.harvie doing that up here,another example of how we are different from the rest of the UK.

The independence supporting Scottish greens and yoon lib dems hooking up is a no-no here,thankfully.

I have no problem with these single issue electoral pacts down south.

Fortunately there’s no need for them here.

[Detournement]

34 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

I have no problem with these single issue electoral pacts down south.

Fortunately there’s no need for them here.

I'd say that it reflects badly on the Greens. They don't care enough about the climate emergency or austerity to stop being a spoiling party but apparently the EU is more important.

 

[welshbairn]

4 hours ago, Detournement said:

I'd say that it reflects badly on the Greens. They don't care enough about the climate emergency or austerity to stop being a spoiling party but apparently the EU is more important.

 

Splitting the vote and letting the Brexit Party in would do fuckall for the climate.

[Jambomo]

I'd say that it reflects badly on the Greens. They don't care enough about the climate emergency or austerity to stop being a spoiling party but apparently the EU is more important.
 

I don’t think it would be unreasonable for the Greens to think remaining in the EU is the most important thing right now.

When it comes to climate change, they would be most likely to see real change and reform come from Europe and they know that the inevitable Tory rule would 1) Try and prevent any real policy reforms that would damage the interests of their friends in high places and 2) Certainly would not find much in the way of funding to try to develop more climate friendly solutions to the issues that exist.