jmothecat Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 If only there was some body somewhere that was suitably qualified to examine the evidence and evaluate whether that was indeed true in the context appropriate to enforcing the law Until such time as a judgement from such a body appears our best chance of a sound verdict is a football message board I'm saying "Yes" There has been nothing that has come out to suggest the customer was discriminated against based on his sexuality. It seems pretty clear that the refusal was based on the message on the cake. If that is illegal then that, to me, is problematic and illiberal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherrif John Bunnell Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 The Very British Bake Off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrewDon Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 2 hours ago, Cream Cheese said: Also, terms like "homophobes" and "backwards thinking" are unhelpful. There's nothing backwards about somebody holding a different opinion, no matter how much you disagree with it. Liberty gives people the freedom to hold whatever views they wish to hold. And, thankfully, it also gives people the freedom to label those who hold and espouse backwards-thinking, homophobic views, backwards-thinking homophobes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 20 minutes ago, jmothecat said: There has been nothing that has come out to suggest the customer was discriminated against based on his sexuality. It seems pretty clear that the refusal was based on the message on the cake. If that is illegal then that, to me, is problematic and illiberal. The message was a political slogan whatever your perspective on the moral issues. It's hugely different from the B+B where a gay couple were refused a bed for the night because of their sexuality. If I was a baker I would certainly refuse to bake a cake with a UKIP or BNP slogan. Freedom of speech should include the freedom not to say something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sooky Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 I wonder if a Christian went to a gay bakers and asked for a cake with 'No to Gay Marriage' and they refused if that would be discriminatory. These are my thoughts also. It sets a precedent to allow things like this and, knowing Northern Ireland, people will probably now try!Honestly I'm quite torn on the issue. Obviously if it was on grounds of purely their sexuality then they should not be able to refuse service. If they don't want to bake a cake promoting something that their company don't believe in, I can see where they are coming from.They really should have just baked the fucking cake though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 4 minutes ago, Sooky said: These are my thoughts also. It sets a precedent to allow things like this and, knowing Northern Ireland, people will probably now try! Honestly I'm quite torn on the issue. Obviously if it was on grounds of purely their sexuality then they should not be able to refuse service. If they don't want to bake a cake promoting something that their company don't believe in, I can see where they are coming from. They really should have just baked the fucking cake though. I think they knew full well what the bakers were like and went there to stir it up. Got loads of publicity out of it but I'm not sure it's positive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hehawhehaw Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 In these stupid politically correct times with the hold the homosexual lobby have on officialdom the rights of Christians will always be trumped by homosexuals. Should there be such a thing as human rights? If you give someone a right you may be taking anothers right away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 1 minute ago, hehawhehaw said: In these stupid politically correct times with the hold the homosexual lobby have on officialdom the rights of Christians will always be trumped by homosexuals. Should there be such a thing as human rights? If you give someone a right you may be taking anothers right away. Homosexuals>Christians Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hampden Diehard Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 The gay community have a record of doing things like this to "out" people who don't support their ideals, so I'd bet that the couple were specifically targeted. The law is fairly strong in favour of non-discrimination and I'm all for that, but it seems crazy that they cannot refuse to bake a cake with a message that that makes them uncomfortable. The bakers were an easy target. I'd like to see the reaction if the gay lobby walked into a church or chapel in NI and made a scene about intolerance. They should have baked the cake and mispelt something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 Tough titty for the homophobes. Right decision IMO. GIRUY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullerene Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 At the Scottish Referendum, there was a baker who did "Yes" cakes and "No" cakes. Maybe that should have happened here. Bake another cake that states their own point of view and put it on display at the front of the shop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaffenThinMint Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 22 minutes ago, Sooky said: These are my thoughts also. It sets a precedent to allow things like this and, knowing Northern Ireland, people will probably now try! They will try against anyone that's a soft target. Billy Baker and Danny's Deli with links to the dodgier elements of loyalism/republicanism (ie. those whose businesses are used for laundering drug money for "the cause") can rest easy that anyone attempting such a shakedown on them has a secure future as part of some motorway flyover or being pork sausages in a year's time c/o the pig farm in County Sligo they were fed to. This is where it gets dangerous: openly driving people into the arms of those pursuing politics "by other means" because they feel they've no choice when the laws of the land have been used to punish them for their private beliefs (& let's be clear about this, this had bugger all to do with refusing to bake a cake - the same bakery had turned away business from the Orange Order & one of the 57 varieties of Republican groups over dubious imagery & slogans requested which could have come back to haunt them in a firebomb through the window once word got out from "the other side"). Laws are there to protect people in a pluralist society to live and let live, not to become a means of shaking down those holding contrary opinions. It's especially dangerous in a place like Northern Ireland where the natives tendencies to knee-jerk overreaction under a veneer of self-righteous indignation still hasn't been eradicated. It's very easy for us on some half-arsed football forum to lecture about homophobia when we're not living in the same community as the bakery in question. If the same "offended" would like to try the same in - for example, some Muslim run bakery in Bradford - & similarly told no, would there be the same level of fuss from the faux-offended? Moreover, would they have dared try it on in the first place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 1 hour ago, jmothecat said: There has been nothing that has come out to suggest the customer was discriminated against based on his sexuality. It seems pretty clear that the refusal was based on the message on the cake. If that is illegal then that, to me, is problematic and illiberal. I tend to agree with this. Were I a Belfast baker I'd happily daub a 'support gay marriage' message on a cake. However, if, during the in/out referendum, I'd been asked to write a message in support of Brexit I'd have told them to f**k off. So discriminating against the messenger = bad but disagreeing with a message = good. What happens with other trades such as sign-writers, graphic artists and even those who sell replica football shirts? I don't know the law in NI but there must surely be some sort of provision that they can refuse work on the grounds of conscience? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sooky Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 I think Peter Tatchell is pretty correct in this article, surprisingly. http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/ashers-bakery-cakes-gay-marriage-discrimination-northern-ireland-a7377916.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Cort's Hamstring Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 I think, similar to others, if they had refused to bake a standard wedding cake for two gay men then that is clearly discriminatory and they should be prosecuted. Even though I think they probably are homophobes, I don't think they should be forced to produce political messages if they don't want to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 I am absolutely delighted by this decision I hope the c***s are bankrupted by the court costs and are driven out of business. A good day for progressive thinking and a bad one for homophobes, homophobe apologists and sky-fairy fuckwits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romeo Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 3 minutes ago, Granny Danger said: I am absolutely delighted by this decision I hope the c***s are bankrupted by the court costs and are driven out of business. A good day for progressive thinking and a bad one for homophobes, homophobe apologists and sky-fairy fuckwits. 110% this. Deciding what cakes to make based on what some work of fiction says or god that doesn't exist is grounds for being committed. Hope it costs them a fucking fortune. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Cort's Hamstring Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 If a heterosexual person went in an asked for the same slogan, would it still be illegal to refuse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romeo Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 If a heterosexual person went in an asked for the same slogan, would it still be illegal to refuse? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Cort's Hamstring Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 Just now, Romeo said: Yes. Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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