Should Hartley be sacked?

[paddymcp]

15 minutes ago, ravabelli said:

Pretty much my own thoughts too and very well put, can't think of seven games we've been brilliant though and the 4_0 at home to Hamilton I just remember their defending that day was comical and thinking even I'd score today

When have Dundee ever been brilliant? Dundee have seen much worse times and football than this in the past and will in the future. He might be a poor manager he might not be but he's consilidated use in the top league for the last few years. He deserves a bit more time than the sack for a so called crisis of being 3 points behind Motherwell.

People sure do love the sack culture on here lol

 

[RandomGuy.]

Absolutely shocked to see a Celtic fan ridiculing Dundee fans who want an ex-Celtic player sacked.

A really surprising moment.

[paddymcp]

5 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Absolutely shocked to see a Celtic fan ridiculing Dundee fans who want an ex-Celtic player sacked.

A really surprising moment.

I didn't even think about the Hartley Celtic connection. Who gives a feck if he played for Celtic for a couple of years at the end of his career. I certainly don't.

[Ludo*1]

I've flipped and flopped on this matter as people will have seen in my posts the past couple of days. I'm now of mind to keep Hartley. Do I trust he'll get us out of this rut? Not completely. I do, however, believe he's been the best manager we've had without argument since Jocky in the 90's and I think there's an argument to be had since well before him too.

This season he has made an absolute arse of it. Can he have any excuses if he does get punted? Not a chance.

Then there's his potential replacements - the absolute best we can hope for is John Hughes. A man that on paper has a better record than Hartley. He is, however, a complete buffoon. A manager that'd either have us in the exact same situation next season or have a massive fall out with the board and once again have the fans divided. Do I trust him to guarantee our safety this season with a squad that isn't his? Again, not really.

I do think Hartley has made a few good signings this season. I like O'Hara, I like El Bahk. Two players we missed massively last night. I also like Gomis although he's looked heartless last night and gormless against Hearts by all accounts.

Do I think we have the worst squad in the league? Nope. Nothing like it. I do think we have, by quite a distance, the worst forward line in the top flight. This needs addressed and this 3-5-2 needs to be punted. It's not working.

I'm on a ramble now, and I expect to get pellets from Dee's for this but I'm fed up of the sacking culture we've embraced. No manager has lasted more than 3 full seasons for us since Duffy's spell in the early 90's. So I'm gonna buck the trend and stick by our manager in the toughest and most depressing of times.*

Mon the Dee!

*Until Saturday after yet another defeat and the wounds are freshly ripped open all over again.

[Shadow Play]

4 minutes ago, Ludo*1 said:

I've flipped and flopped on this matter as people will have seen in my posts the past couple of days. I'm now of mind to keep Hartley. Do I trust he'll get us out of this rut? Not completely. I do, however, believe he's been the best manager we've had without argument since Jocky in the 90's and I think there's an argument to be had since well before him too.

This season he has made an absolute arse of it. Can he have any excuses if he does get punted? Not a chance.

Then there's his potential replacements - the absolute best we can hope for is John Hughes. A man that on paper has a better record than Hartley. He is, however, a complete buffoon. A manager that'd either have us in the exact same situation next season or have a massive fall out with the board and once again have the fans divided. Do I trust him to guarantee our safety this season with a squad that isn't his? Again, not really.

I do think Hartley has made a few good signings this season. I like O'Hara, I like El Bahk. Two players we missed massively last night. I also like Gomis although he's looked heartless last night and gormless against Hearts by all accounts.

Do I think we have the worst squad in the league? Nope. Nothing like it. I do think we have, by quite a distance, the worst forward line in the top flight. This needs addressed and this 3-5-2 needs to be punted. It's not working.

I'm on a ramble now, and I expect to get pellets from Dee's for this but I'm fed up of the sacking culture we've embraced. No manager has lasted more than 3 full seasons for us since Duffy's spell in the early 90's. So I'm gonna buck the trend and stick by our manager in the toughest and most depressing of times.*

Mon the Dee!

*Until Saturday after yet another defeat and the wounds are freshly ripped open all over again.

I agree O'Hara and El Bak will probably develop into very good players but that will take time.  Unfortunately due to Hartley's poor signings over the last 2/3 seasons they are both being thrown in at the deep end as there is nobody pushing for a place.  

Regarding the poor forward line, that's also down to Hartley's signings.  He must have known Stewart and Hemmings were going but brought in no one with any top flight experience.  This, despite knowing that Loy (who he clearly doesn't rate) was the only remaining out and out striker!

Can't say the same about the number of defensively minded midfielders he has bought though.  A large proportion of the budget must have been spent in this department!

[ravabelli]

Don't think there's any Dee's on here who don't want Hartley to be successful and it's not a case of sacking for sackings sake. If we all thought he could turn it round then we'd all still be right behind him but we're the ones who watch the team regularly and know what we see. we've had some half decent runs of games but I've never felt we've been totally convincing, rode our luck at times and always felt we were only ever a few breaks away from the situation we find ourselves in now. He's made mistakes and got away with it because he is a young manager  and we had a few players who carried the team through but has he learned from past mistakes or willing to change?

[bobbycoxblue]

Absolutely shocked to see a Celtic fan ridiculing Dundee fans who want an ex-Celtic player sacked.

A really surprising moment.

Absolutely shocked to see you post in a dundee thread you tedious boring chunt

[Rugster]

12 hours ago, Ludo*1 said:

Then there's his potential replacements - the absolute best we can hope for is John Hughes. A man that on paper has a better record than Hartley. He is, however, a complete buffoon. A manager that'd either have us in the exact same situation next season or have a massive fall out with the board and once again have the fans divided. Do I trust him to guarantee our safety this season with a squad that isn't his? Again, not really.

 

One thing John Hughes is not, is a buffoon. He's a lot smarter than people think, his problem is he's not as smart as he thinks he is. He's also well known for stubborn favouritism, and poisonous relationships in the dressing room and with boards.

He really could be a top manager if he cut out some of his nonsense. His tenure at Caley could have been looked upon so much more favourably if he'd just gone quietly instead of engineering his exit the way he did.

Of course another big problem would be that he relies heavily on his assistant, and since his two choices won't be available (Latapy won't work with him again and Rice would be bonkers to leave Caley) he would have an issue there.

 

[KingBeastie]

27 minutes ago, Rugster said:

He's a lot smarter than people think, his problem is he's not as smart as he thinks he is.

True dat.

[JockysJetpack]

58 minutes ago, Rugster said:

Latapy won't work with him again

Is there a story behind this that I missed?

[Old Pack]

HaHaHartley must stay.

[Dee Man]

11 hours ago, Old Pack said:

HaHaHartley must stay.

This is the sort of cutting edge wit that I log onto p&b for.

[tree house tam]

Tommy Wright went 3 fucking months without winning a game either last season or the season before(canny mind which one as we always finish top 4). Anyway, get a fucking grip Dees, you boys slag Random for being a knicker wetter, take a fucking good look in the mirror. Except you biggie you ugly c**t. Let Hartley get on with it till January , if he shows signs of Mixu, put the c**t down . 

[Dee Man]

Just now, tree house tam said:

Tommy Wright went 3 fucking months without winning a game either last season or the season before(canny mind which one as we always finish top 4). Anyway, get a fucking grip Dees, you boys slag Random for being a knicker wetter, take a fucking good look in the mirror. Except you biggie you ugly c**t. Let Hartley get on with it till January , if he shows signs of Mixu, put the c**t down . 

I've been thinking along these lines myself. First really bad patch we've had and the automatic reaction is to get rid. I'm starting to think we should try something revolutionary in football and stick with the manager through the bad period. I couldn't see any new manager getting any improvement out of that group of players. 

Don't get me wrong though, I'll be the first c**t on here calling for his head if we get pumped today.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

I've been thinking along these lines myself. First really bad patch we've had and the automatic reaction is to get rid. I'm starting to think we should try something revolutionary in football and stick with the manager through the bad period. I couldn't see any new manager getting any improvement out of that group of players. 

Don't get me wrong though, I'll be the first c**t on here calling for his head if we get pumped today.

It's not just recent results though. A lot of people have had concerns for a while now regards his tactics and signings.

However, what's made me reach the point of wanting him to go is that he seems to have lost the players - no amount of press releases are going to hide the fact that they are just not fighting hard enough.

[Dunning1874]

5 minutes ago, tree house tam said:

Tommy Wright went 3 fucking months without winning a game either last season or the season before(canny mind which one as we always finish top 4). Anyway, get a fucking grip Dees, you boys slag Random for being a knicker wetter, take a fucking good look in the mirror. Except you biggie you ugly c**t. Let Hartley get on with it till January , if he shows signs of Mixu, put the c**t down . 

If that's last season you're meaning when you went more than two months without winning - seven league games - that's an entirely different scenario. Yes, that was obviously a dreadful run of form, but it came on the back of a run where you'd won seven of your previous nine.

As you'd had an excellent run preceding it you didn't drop out of the top six at any point, and the fact you'd had such great results prior to the terrible run meant Wright had earned the trust and patience to turn it round, which he did. Even when you weren't winning you were still getting some draws and didn't lose more than three in a row. It was a shocking run of results, but it wasn't like you were in total freefall: there was no danger of doing a Hibs.

In contrast, Dundee are bottom of the league. Their winless run is now at 10 games, having lost their last 6 in a row. Where St Johnstone's winless run was preceded by winning 7 of 9, Dundee have won the first game of the season and that's it. Tommy Wright had earned patience and time to turn it around as he'd proved he was capable of consistently getting results with that St. Johnstone squad. Paul Hartley has done nothing to prove he's capable of getting any results from this Dundee squad. Their winless run has been longer than yours was, they've lost more than you did in your winless run, and Hartley has shown no sign of turning it around.

The suggestion that it's 'knicker-wetting' to want your manager sacked when you're bottom of the league after 10 games without a win and six defeats in a row is fucking ridiculous. There's an argument to be made for keeping him, but there isn't a club in the world where the manager wouldn't be under pressure in those circumstances and it's clearly entirely reasonable for Dundee fans to want him sacked.

[RandomGuy.]

6 minutes ago, Dunning1874 said:

If that's last season you're meaning when you went more than two months without winning - seven league games

It was a run of three wins in 18 matches, I'm sure. And we went nine straight games without a win or draw during it

[Dee Man]

43 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

It's not just recent results though. A lot of people have had concerns for a while now regards his tactics and signings.

However, what's made me reach the point of wanting him to go is that he seems to have lost the players - no amount of press releases are going to hide the fact that they are just not fighting hard enough.

From what I've seen this season it looks like a lack of talent more than lack of fight that's our problem. Obviously they're Hartley's signings and that's his main problem - he thinks he can sign mediocre players and make them into superstars - he can't and he needs to realise that, but there is not one name out there that I would be confident of getting us off the bottom of the table. I'd rather stick with Hartley unless we knew we were getting someone at least semi-decent in. Sacking him for the likes of John Hughes gives me the cold sweats. 

[Fifespud]

Tommy Wright went 3 fucking months without winning a game either last season or the season before(canny mind which one as we always finish top 4). Anyway, get a fucking grip Dees, you boys slag Random for being a knicker wetter, take a fucking good look in the mirror. Except you biggie you ugly c**t. Let Hartley get on with it till January , if he shows signs of Mixu, put the c**t down . 

You're right, I vote keep him.

[Fifespud]

If that's last season you're meaning when you went more than two months without winning - seven league games - that's an entirely different scenario. Yes, that was obviously a dreadful run of form, but it came on the back of a run where you'd won seven of your previous nine.

As you'd had an excellent run preceding it you didn't drop out of the top six at any point, and the fact you'd had such great results prior to the terrible run meant Wright had earned the trust and patience to turn it round, which he did. Even when you weren't winning you were still getting some draws and didn't lose more than three in a row. It was a shocking run of results, but it wasn't like you were in total freefall: there was no danger of doing a Hibs.

In contrast, Dundee are bottom of the league. Their winless run is now at 10 games, having lost their last 6 in a row. Where St Johnstone's winless run was preceded by winning 7 of 9, Dundee have won the first game of the season and that's it. Tommy Wright had earned patience and time to turn it around as he'd proved he was capable of consistently getting results with that St. Johnstone squad. Paul Hartley has done nothing to prove he's capable of getting any results from this Dundee squad. Their winless run has been longer than yours was, they've lost more than you did in your winless run, and Hartley has shown no sign of turning it around.

The suggestion that it's 'knicker-wetting' to want your manager sacked when you're bottom of the league after 10 games without a win and six defeats in a row is fucking ridiculous. There's an argument to be made for keeping him, but there isn't a club in the world where the manager wouldn't be under pressure in those circumstances and it's clearly entirely reasonable for Dundee fans to want him sacked.

Aye you're right. Let's sack the cûnt.