John Lambies Doos Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 I would suggest that Catalonia needs to declare UDI today. The Spanish government are not/cannot offer a binding referendum. They are also offering no concessions either. If not, momentum will be completely lost and we are very unlikely to see an independent Catalonia for generations. Not saying I favour either outcome (ahem)but they need to keep moving forward on this or their goals will not be met.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjc Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 2 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said: I would suggest that Catalonia needs to declare UDI today. The Spanish government are not/cannot offer a binding referendum. They are also offering no concessions either. On the basis of a 42% turnout for an unofficial referendum? Could very well alienate more Catalans than support their cause. Wasn't there an official referendum in Catalonia a few years ago? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 On the basis of a 42% turnout for an unofficial referendum? Could very well alienate more Catalans than support their cause. Wasn't there an official referendum in Catalonia a few years ago? Nope. They had an advisory one which wasn't approved by Madrid which yielded about 80% yes.I'm not saying it's right or wrong. All I'm saying is the Catalan movement will lose all momentum if they don't. The Spanish are offering no concessions.... not even a shitey wee Daily Record type vow 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjc Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 Just now, John Lambies Doos said: Nope. They had an advisory one which wasn't approved by Madrid which yielded about 80% yes. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. All I'm saying is the Catalan movement will lose all momentum if they don't. The Spanish are offering no concessions.... not even a shitey wee Daily Record type vow What was the turnout for this vote though? Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the Spanish authorities current actions in any way. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenconner Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 1 minute ago, sjc said: What was the turnout for this vote though? Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the Spanish authorities current actions in any way. Aye ye ur. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjc Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 10 minutes ago, Glenconner said: Aye ye ur. in what way? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 What use is momentum if the entire international community responds to your UDI with a scolding and/ or a shrug of the shoulders? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 What use is momentum if the entire international community responds to your UDI with a scolding and/ or a shrug of the shoulders? It's a valid point. There's is also validity in what's the point doing fuk all. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 It's a valid point. There's is also validity in what's the point doing fuk all. Aye it'll look bad for them if they don't but I can't see a single way Catalonia can come out of this for the better. *maybe they can launch a reconquista of Sicily, Sardinia and southern Greece. Reclaim the Aragonese Empire! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tirso Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 Been chewing it over and it's a difficult. By the way, nonsense to suggest every single person who hasn't voted would vote no. That's illogical. Even in Scotland's big vote 15% didn't vote. With around 40% of the entire electorate voting Yes under the most brutally repressive circumstances available, I do not believe that can be ignored. It probably is a majority for Independence of people who would vote in a legal vote. Problem is it's not 100% clear which makes UDI difficult. As discussed previously, 48% voted for independence parties in the last election. 40% for Unionist parties and the remainder for a pretty ambigous middle ground. There probably is a majority in favour of independence around the familiar levels of 55 / 45. The biggest reason Spain will not provide a legal vote is they fear they would lose. It's not as if the Catalan government haven't asked for dialogue. They have been doing so for years. At what point do you just go for it. I struggle with the decision myself. I believe possibly an avenue is to call an election. If it is majority yes they call UDI. You're not dealing with a Spain which is looking to negotiate. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjc Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 6 minutes ago, NotThePars said: What use is momentum if the entire international community responds to your UDI with a scolding and/ or a shrug of the shoulders? That's what I was getting at. Plus there could very well be a Majority of Catalans put out by such a move. Personally I couldn't give a f**k although it would be amusing watching "more than a Club" Barcelona turning their back on the luxury of La Liga for the backwaters of the Catalan Premier League out of principal. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tirso Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 i would also say, it's really disappointing to see the big institutions back each other up. When you give such a sizeable amount of people no democratic ability to express their opinion it does not solve the issue. It's really disheartening to see your rights taken away. It's simply an expression of opinion; it shouldn't be dangerous. The real ideas and arguments of independence or remaining are not being discussed because we're not even able to get past what should be an easy question of rights to decide. An act was passed by majority in Parliament. What more can the Catalans do? There needs to be pressure to have a legal vote but been talking about this for 5 years. Madrid will not budge. Carles Puigdemont just wants to allow the people to have a decision. If it was no, they would respect it like any other democrat. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTG_03 Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 They've been left with no other choice. Spain won't give them any more powers and won't allow a legal referendum as they fear a yes vote. Democracy is dead in Catalonia. I think puigdemont is making a speech in a couple of hours. I don't see any other option than UDI. If it is; to succeed they'll need a lot of things to fall in line and real international pressure on Spain. Good luck to them 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doulikefish Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 Personally I couldn't give a f**k although it would be amusing watching "more than a Club" Barcelona turning their back on the luxury of La Liga for the backwaters of the Catalan Premier League out of principal. Catalan league given 1 team straight to the group stages of the champions lge within 5mins by uefa nap [emoji23] 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tirso Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, topcat(The most tip top) said: 42% apparently Which means 38% voted yes, 4% voted no and 58% didn't vote argument seems to be polarised on whether the existence of that 58% can be simply ignored or whether every one of them should be considered as additional no voters because they were obviously boycotting it. just as a matter of fact - that is the most real results the Generalitat could give. The Spanish police stole a load of papers so the actual turnout is unknown. Believed to be closer to 50% or even some suggest 56% (although I do not believe this to be likely). I'd take an average and say it's more likely around 48/52). Authorities estimate 52. These votes have not been counted..around 700,000 in an electorate of 5m. However, through the day itself the authorities said you could vote in another station if you could as they had universal census. So to make sure there was no double counting they are not including this 700,000. So it's the minimum 43% but actually beyond doubt not all 700k made another vote so difficult to give correct figure. Edited October 10, 2017 by tirso 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loondave1 Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 The self confessed troll gets less and less bites every week. Everyone must be realising what a tragic mess he is. Aw you guys are so cute with your wee back patting club."Everyone" will be enjoying your "I'm in the gang too" pitch for acceptance.Maybe get a wee T Shirt or something ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AUFC90 Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 Aw you guys are so cute with your wee back patting club."Everyone" will be enjoying your "I'm in the gang too" pitch for acceptance.Maybe get a wee T Shirt or something ? Im not back patting anyone. You know im talking about you because you are a self confessed troll and you enter the thread with a pitiful effort to get bites. If you're just going to be a fanny on the politics threads then maybe you should stay away. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamamafegan Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 They've been left with no other choice. Spain won't give them any more powers and won't allow a legal referendum as they fear a yes vote. Democracy is dead in Catalonia.I think puigdemont is making a speech in a couple of hours. I don't see any other option than UDI.If it is; to succeed they'll need a lot of things to fall in line and real international pressure on Spain.Good luck to them Agree with this. Spain will treat Catalonia like a little bitch if they don’t declare independence, and they’ll never ever give them the mandate for an official election. They’ve shown their true colours and it’s time for Catalonia to show theirs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTG_03 Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 Agree with this. Spain will treat Catalonia like a little bitch if they don’t declare independence, and they’ll never ever give them the mandate for an official election. They’ve shown their true colours and it’s time for Catalonia to show theirs. Yip. They're at the point of no return. They've asked for a legal referendum and were denied, they've asked for dialogue regarding further powers and were denied. The EU will lose a lot of support if the Catalans declare independence, Spain bin the Catalan parliament and the EU do nothing.People deserve a vote on their future. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invergowrie arab Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 There is no benefit whatever to UDI. No-one will recognise it, it will likely mean suspension of Catalan parliament and the pro Indy moderates won't like it. It's a shite state of affairs but despite their legitimate grievances the Catalan independence movement needs to play the game in Europe and put pressure on for a Madrid recognised referendum. This might not happen today or even next year. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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